On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 11:36 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@hidden.email> wrote:
> From: Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@hidden.email>
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 11:08 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@hidden.email> wrote:
>
>>> But krici lo du'u doesn't mean "believe the proposition is true", it means "believes the proposition".
>
>> A distinction without a difference. And while I don't give much weight
>> to the actual wording of official definitions, the one for "krici"
>> happens to be: "x1 believes [regardless of evidence/proof]
>> belief/creed x2 (du'u) is true/assumed about subject x3".
>
> Nor hardly quite and, shame on you for quoting crappy Lojban lists definitions that we have spent so much time (23 years or so) deriding. The x3 place being particularly bad here (as generally in these sorts of cases). One of them is a claim about fire, the other about a proposition, so not even plausibly having the same meaning.
In English we can say:
(E1) I believe that the book is on the table.
(E2) I see that the book is on the table.
(E3) I believe and see that the book is on the table.
In Lojban we can do (1) and (2), and we have a terribly weird way of doing (3):
(L1) mi krici lo du'u lo cukta cu cpana lo jubme
(L2) mi viska lo nu lo cukta cu cpana lo jubme
(L3) mi lo du'u ja nu lo cukta cu cpana lo jubme cu krici gi'e viska
In Xorban we can do all 3 normally as in English:
(X1) la fa le ckte li jbmi cpneki krca'aka
(X2) la fa le ckte li jbmi cpneki vska'aka
(X3) la fa le ckte li jbmi cpneki je krca'aka vska'aka
There doesn't seem to be any good reason to follow Lojban on this.
I quite agree and don't think I have said anything to the contrary. I would disagree that what I believe and what I see are states of affairs or truth values, but that is another matter (and I am still not sure just what f does create). vsk is going to be an interesting predicate to watch, as it is in Lojban.
co ma'a xrxe