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Am 24.10.2012 23:23, schrieb John E. Clifford:
On Oct 24, 2012, at 3:46 PM, "Mike S." <maikxlx@gmail.com <maikxlx@gmail.com">mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com>> wrote:le je li fgri mplike li glri kmeki plkeka'a "The fire-instantiated property of hot things is pleasant to me." "The fire's hotness is pleasant to me." That's verbose, but that does seem to be the right logical form. In Lojban: .i lo se mupli be lo fagri be'o je ka glare cu pluka miOr more simply lo ka lo fagri cu glare cu pluka mi. (apparently you can't do that in X).
You can't do that in modern Lojban either. A ka without a ce'u is not well-formed by today's standards (at least according to most people).
That would be "lo nu lo fagri cu glare cu pluka mi". I don't see how a property is necessary in this particular case.
I think I made a suggestion about properties indirectly in some thread, and I think the idea was to have a variable that works somewhat like ce'u, then you can just do something like "glre'u" (I know e'u has been used as "someone"), which means pretty much "hotness". It's the abstract idea of something being hot. "e'u" wouldn't be bound by anything in the sentence, it would stay vacant all the time to allow for those general "-ness/dom" expressions. I think you can usually use normal events for things like the above sentence, and in the less common cases where you can't, you might just say something equivalent to "the fire's hotness" ~ "la fgra le'u glre'u psake'u" (how to say this using the new p- operator?), and now I see the problem with this approach; there is only one e'u variable, and you might want more than one ce'u in a sentence. Clearly, this idea isn't entirely sound..., but I hope I could get it across. I wonder how terrible "le glre'u" would be instead of "le'u glre'u", that way we'd at least have infinitely many ce'u to work with, but the binding looks bad. I'm really not convinved that properties need a new ka-like abstraction to be added. Gua\spi also has only a single abstractor for everything (plus one for direct speech).
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i -- pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo doị mèlbi mlenì'u .i do càtlu ki'u ma fe la xàmpre ŭu .i do tìnsa càrmi gi'e sìrji se tàrmi .i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku .