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And Rosta scripsit: > > In general, whenever a property is emergent only (like leadership; you > > are the leader of LLG but not of the members of LLG), then we predicated > > it of a set when constructing the gimste > > Ahem! This seems pretty clearly to contradict received doctrine. Which received doctrine? I was stating a fact about the gimste and how it was constructed (partly by me). > Sets have leaders only when they're sets of certain sorts of thing, Well, "leader" is just one sense of "ralju", which really means the distinguished member. > so we are dealing with a notion far closer to Collective. But we have > always opined that lV'i would be more useful as Collective, and > if it is compatible with fundamentalism to treat lV'i in this > way, then it is going to solve a shitload of problems. I think it is and it does. If we analyze when the gimste says "(set)" and when it says "(mass)" -- which mean that the filler of this place is semantically a set or mass respectively -- then we may have something. Here are the ten instances of "(set)" expressed as sumti: lo te ciste: a set of components which constitute a system lo te cnano: a set with an average (of specified sort) lo te fadni: a set with at least one typical member lo se jbini: a set of points which some point is between/among lo se plita: a set of points defining a plane lo ve pluta: a set of locations defining a route lo se ralju: a set with a distinguished member (of specified type) lo te rirci: a set with at least one atypical member lo simxu: a set whose members do something reciprocally to one another lo te steci: a set with members that are specific (in specified manner) Here are the instances of "(mass)" which are not optional: lo ciste: a system lo se gubni: a community which has joint (indivisible) rights to something lo jenmi: an army lo se jenmi: a community which has an army lo kamni: a committee lo se kulnu: a community sharing a common culture lo se lanxe: a group of forces keeping something in equilibrium lo lanzu: a family lo se misno: a community to whom someone is famous lo mixre: a mixture lo se panlo: a jbomass off which something is sliced lo salta: salad lo sanmi: a meal lo se trene: the cars constituting a train Most of these represent groups of things such that their identity does not consist in the specific individuals (which can come and go). IMHO lo se lanxe and lo se trene ought rightly to be sets: take away or add a force and you have no equilibrium, take away or add a car and you have a different train (lo trene is the physical train, not the abstract train which it instantiates, like the City of New Orleans or the 5:05 to Ronkonkoma -- another example of a Unique). Finally, here are the instances of "(mass)" where the place filler can be a Substance or an individual -- I think these are straightforward: lo se canja: something the object of barter/exchange lo se cirko: something lost lo ve cnemu: a reward lo dirba: something emotionally valuable to someone lo se dunda: something given lo se friti: something offered lo se jdima: something that is price of something else lo se jerna: salary lo se jinga: a prize of victory lo kargu: something expensive lo ve pleji: goods or services for which someone is remunerated lo prali: a profit lo se tivni: TV programming lo se vamji: something valued at some value lo se vecnu: something sold -- John Cowan <jcowan@hidden.email> http://www.reutershealth.com I amar prestar aen, han mathon ne nen, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan han mathon ne chae, a han noston ne 'wilith. --Galadriel, _LOTR:FOTR_