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Mike S., On 28/08/2012 19:28:
On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 7:34 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@hidden.email <mailto:and.rosta@hidden.email>> wrote:
Mike S., On 28/08/2012 00:21:
> /a e i o u @ 1/ - similar to Lojban, except that Lojban does not
> define [1] for its seventh vowel, even though that's plainly the only
> practical choice for a seventh given the sanctioned allophonic ranges
> of the other six.
For that reason I use [y] for the buffer vowel, which is ridiculous, but still the best way of coping with idiotic design. I pronounce _zbasu_ as [zybasu].
That'd be a good choice if Lojban rules didn't declare [y] declare a
variant of /i/. Rounding is defined as nondistinctive in Lojban, so I
believe that /1/ and its rounded variant are the only choices
enjoying a significant chunk of vowel space.
You're right; I'd forgotten about that, probably because [y] is now so ingrained in my habits. But the resulting allophonic ranges of Lojban phonemes are completely incredible. If one were trying to fix Lojban, one would have to scrap the rule that rounding is nondistinctive.
> I decided to make the sixth vowel /9/ (with the allophone [@] allowed
> in unstressed syllables due to its frequency). /y/ is the seventh
> vowel, which sees more use in Tikybau than in Lojban. My reasoning is
> this: if people can pronounced /a e i o u/ with rounded back vowels
> and unrounded front vowels, with a little practice, people can
> pronounce /y 9/ too, and therefore that's probably the best choice if
> you want seven vowels.
We think alike! Perhaps I go one step further in thinking that given that, for concision's sake, one wants the maximum number of vowels that are able to generally remain distinct, this 7-vowel system is the optimum one.
Tikybau also:
Changes spellings <c x> to <x h>. Vowels <w> = /y/, and <y> = /9/;
the use of <w y> here is a little unfortunate, but <y> seems best
where it is. <c q> are unused.
If backwards-compatibility were not an issue, <y> for /y/ would be better. /9/ could remain unwritten. /y/ would become [y].
Replaces the voiceless glide represented by the apostrophe with the semivowel forms of /i/ or /u/ or with zero as needed.
I agree. I'd also disallow /eu, yu, oi/ and restrict the distribution of /9/.
Replaces the pause "phoneme" with the glottal stop, if that's not already what it is, and spells it with the apostrophe instead of the period, making all phonemes audible ones.*
I agree.
Drops the comma, however that was meant to work.
I agree.
Tightens phonotactics at bit by requiring nasal+obstruent to be homorganic (m with p b, n with all else), and making a few other tweaks.
I'd abolish all existing phonotactic constraints on consonants and replace them by a requirement that every C be followed by a V.
Drops syllabic consonants, but sanctions the sequences /yn ym yr yr/ not in _V position to be pronounced the same way in unstressed syllables.
I forget the uses of those syllabic sonorants in Lojban, but at any rate, I'd do away with syllabicity as a phonological property.
Disallows /ii/ and /uu/; AFAIK this affects only <.ii .uu> which become <'iai 'uau>
Or even <'ii, 'uu> /'i9i, 'u9u/.
Discourages but does not forbid sequences like /vua djia/;
I wouldn't even discourage. A remarkable degree of consensus, given we've never discussed this before! --And.