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Lojbab: > At 01:46 AM 12/21/02 +0000, And Rosta wrote: > >John: > > > Invent Yourself scripsit: > > > > What I am really > > > > saying here though, which nobody is addressing, is that we > should reserve > > > > mass-gadri for collectives. And disambiguate collectives from > substances, > > > > because they are very different things > > > > > > I don't agree that they are different, much less very different. I think > > > this view (which you hold) is just as much a Whorfian mind-lock as the > > > view (which you don't hold) that an individual != a quantity of a > substance > > > > > > The "Creatures of Lo[i]" view is that when water (which is a portion of > > Water) > > > flows over a dam, this is the same situation as when monkey (which is > > > a portion of Monkey) falls out of a tree > > > >All sorts of issues are being mixed up here: > > > >1. Which distinct notions is Lojban to be able to express? > >2. Which conflated notions is Lojban to be able to express? > >3. Which of these notions does a speaker choose to emply to describe > >a given thing? > > > >Xod addresses (1). You answer by making a point about (3). The one I > >care about is (1). We don't really have to bother with (3); I am > >perfectly happy for a Lojbanist to say that the mass of all monkey(s) > >falls from a tree. But I want to be able to treat Substance and > >Collective distinctly > > This is why we need to separate the byfy from jboske. byfy is solely about > (3), making changes informed by (1) and (2) only when the answer to (3) > cannot be determined (3) is irrelevant to BF. (3) is about a speaker's choices. BF is about (1), (2) & (4): 4. What notion does a given cmavo express? The outcome of the BF will determine the range of choices open to a speaker. --And.