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xod: > On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, And Rosta wrote: > > > John: > > > And Rosta scripsit: > > > > > > > Our Forefathers spoke of Mr Bird as a mass, but there is loads of > > > > confusion here. Lojbo 'masses' are groups = logli 'sets'. The > > > > notion of 'group' makes more sense for things that are naturally > > > > individuable. For stuff that isn't naturally individuable, > > > > the notion of 'mass' is more appropriate, but is not really distinct > > > > from Mr Stuff > > > > > > What counts as "natural" individuability? > > > > > > The-mass-of-all-ice weighs billions of tons, but Mr. Ice does not, because > > > the (proto)typical instance of ice is much smaller. The Greenland and > > > Antarctica ice sheets are not (proto)typical. Yet boundaries between > > > ice blobs are rather arbitrary > > > > I won't say what counts as "natural" individuability, because for the > > present discussion I think it is sufficient to say that it is that > > criterion that allows one to predict whether a noun in English is > > normally used as a mass noun or normally used as a count noun > > Essentially, the issue is whether the category's properties include > > criteria for recognizing an instance's boundary and hence recognizing > > distinct instances > > That's true with water, but beans are referred to with mass nouns, when > one can very clearly see individual beans Eh? One bean, two beans. Mass: "stuff the aubergine/eggplant with bean". "Rice" would be a better example. "A rice" is not a grain of rice. So okay, let's not say that for every predicate English diagnoses whether it is naturally individuable. But at least English does grammaticize the criterion of natural individuability. > We are conflating substance-nouns with nouns that exhibit emergent > properties by using lei for both of them. This doesn't help us, and in > fact, I see no reason why Lojban needs a substance gadri at all. We can > very easily refer to any quantity of beans or ice with le If "lo birje" is "a beer", then we need a way to say plain "beer". Massifiers erase individuating boundaries, and that's what we need here. I agree that we have been conflating massification with collectivization (groups with emergent properties). I intend to distinguish them by using lu'o for the massifier and lu'oi for the collectivizer. Hopefully the BF will also distinguish them somehow. --And.