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On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 02:19:52AM -0000, And Rosta wrote:
> Jordan:
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 08:33:25PM -0000, And Rosta wrote:
[...]
> > > I had supposed that "i kakne play the trombone" is false but
> > > "cumki I play the trombone" is true, under average assumptions
> > > I don't see a difference between cumki and su'o mu'ei/ba'oi.
> > > So either cumki is equivalent to kakne or else either ka'e is
> > > not equivalent to kakne or ka'e is not equivalent to su'o mu'ei
> >
> > Well, that's my point though---if ka'e/kakne (which I think must
> > be the same) mean su'omu'ei, they mean it with a different accessabilty
> > relation than the su'omu'ei that cumki or lakne means. I think
> > this makes sense, and is probably more accurate than a view using
> > the same world relation but requiring truth in more accessible
> > worlds
>
> Okay, but if ka'e = kakne, then we need to establish how to talk
> about imaginaries as imaginaries.
>
> su'o mu'ei
> su'o mu'ei je ca'a
> su'o mu'ei je nai ca'a
>
> would do the trick, but they are extremely cumbersome. We don't
> often need to talk about imaginary dogs or even detectives, but
> we do often need to talk about imaginary events. And it has been
> said by Reputable Sources (JWC) that CAhA does this; yet that
> does not square with the actual definition of ka'e or its
> apparent relationship with kakne.
I'm not sure if I followed the above exactly. Doesn't {nu'o}
get you the ability to talk about things which aren't {ca'a}? Or
is that not what you mean...
> > WRT mu'ei (and somewhat off topic), I just realized (while trying
> > to think of a way it could be done as a NU) that all that ledu'u
> > .... kei goo (or for whatever reason some prefer lo'edu'u, though I
> > maintain that a statement is itself and trying to think of a typical
> > version of a set of (itself) is weird, and seems to imply the set
> > isn't singular) can be avoided by using a forethought stag:
> > ro mu'ei gi do gerku gi mi citkygau do
> > Which is kinda nice
>
> Can you give a couple more examples? I don't quite get what you
> mean & can't work it out for myself because I haven't properly
> learnt the construction.
Since PA+ROI is a valid tag, you can put it after I before BO. Like:
mi klama le zarci .isemu'ibo mi xagji loi cidja
You can do this in forethought like so:
semu'i gi mi xagji loi cidja gi mi klama le zarci
(which is the same as the first).
So, since mu'ei is ROI (and thus a valid tag) we can do the
same stuff.
mi klama le zarci .i romu'ei bo mi xagji ==
ro mu'ei gi mi xagji gi mi klama le zarci ==
romu'ei le/lo'e/whatever du'u mi xagji kei mi klama le zarci
> Regarding {lo'e du'u}, the Jboske consensus was that {lo'e} is
> only tangentially -- or rather epiphenomenally -- concerned with
> typicality, and that actually {lo'e broda} means "In a world
> like this one but with only one broda, the one broda is...". In
> the light of that, {lo'e du'u} makes perfect sense. (Statements
> explicitly about typicality can be made using {fadni}, {so'e roi}
> and other such devices.)
That seems like a pretty bad analysis of {lo'e} to me. What possible
reason could there be for abandoning the idea of it relating to
typicality? Something which relates lo'e broda to most broda would
be better...
> Xorxes and I had a very interesting exchange about the most
> appropriate default gadri to use when the category is singleton.
> I favour {lo'e}; he approves that on semantic grounds, but
> prefers {le} on phonological grounds.
You can say lodu'u (which tu'o du'u is of course a variant of),
though that is strange because lo usually implies you don't know
which member of lo'i, but here there's only 1 member of the lo'i,
and furthermore you're about to say it right after the du'u, so you
clearly sanji it. lo'e or le'e have similar strangeness. Mass and
set articles, as well as li/me'o are completely wrong. So that
leaves le... (which, yes, is also 1 sylable shorter, which is nice
because du'u takes two).
--
Jordan DeLong - fracture@hidden.email
lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u
sei la mark. tuen. cusku
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