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On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, And Rosta wrote:
> xod:
> #> From memory, his ex was
> #> something like {le ni la djan cilre ce'u} = "the amount of things
> #> read by John". Would this be an example of what you have in mind?
> #
> #Yes; which I phrase as "the number of sumti valid for that tergi'u".
> #
> #http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jboske/message/273
>
> OK.
>
> le ni ce'u nenri le dakli
> the amount of things in the bag
>
> = da poi mo'e ke'a de nenri le dakli
>
> Would {le ni ce'u prami ce'u} mean "the amount of lover--beloved
> pairings"? That would be much harder to say in some other way.
I'm unaware of anyone ever having explored that generalization. It is
interesting, though. I sense some untapped elegance there.
> #> > > Regarding the conceptual redundancy, I don't find "extent to which"
> #> > > and "whether" to be redundant. Sometimes it is useful to be able to
> #> > > restrict "extent to which" to Yes or No (= "whether"). This distinction
> #> > > needn't be made be ni vs jei, but it's not redundant (and I don't know
> #> > > how else to make it)
> #> >
> #> > Since jei is fuzzy, it does not give you the boolean you seek! You have a
> #> > choice between "the extent to which (-00, 00)" and "the extent to which
> #> > [0, 1]"
> #>
> #> I seek:
> #>
> #> (a) a way to do "the extent to which", ranging from infinitely much to
> #> infinitely not-at-all
> #>
> #> (b) a way to do "whether", ranging from completely true to completely
> #> false.
> #>
> #> -- which seems to correspond to the choice you offer me. Now, according
> #> to you, how would I express (a) and (b) in Lojban?
> #
> #jei is perfect for either one. I don't choose to interpret those two
> #sentences as having different meaning!
>
> Okay. I find that unsatisfactory. I'm happy to see (b) as a subtype of (a), but
> I know from experience that I often want to say (b) and not (a) -- I often want
> to say "whether" rather than "extent to which".
I insist that there is no semantic difference between the two, except for
the assumption of booleanness buried inside "whether or not". Now, jei
doesn't impose fuzzy states if such would violate reality; it can be used
for the state of a coin flip.
--
"In the Soviet Union, government controls industry. In the United
States, industry controls government. That is the principal
structural difference between the two great oligarchies of our
time." -- Edward Abbey