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On Friday, July 30, Melroch 'Aestan wrote: <<<<<< Isaac Penzev wrote: > Benct Philip Jonsson wrote: >>*Is* there really an /Z/ in native Turkish vocabulary? > I don't think so. But there will be tons of /Z/ in Slavic loans. Yes, I didn't think of that! >>>>>> Hmm. Tons may be exageration. For now I confound only _жарт_ 'joke' and _жах_ 'horror' with a derivate _жахлы_ 'terrible'. Both from Ukrainian. To say nothing about 'internationalisms' like _журнал_ 'magazine'... <<<<<< Then rather Jj by itself. I think the problem is that the shape җ suggests /dZ/ to me. IMHO ӝ would more nicely suggest [Z;] or [z\]. >>>>>> Yes, I'll stick provisionally to "j". It will be a good reminder of its origin: /Z/ < CT */j/. E.g. _jол_ 'road', _jер_ 'land', _jазарга_ 'to write'. Nice, isn't it? "җ" came to my mind as a similarity to "щ" - a palatal variant of "ш". Anyway, I'll leave "щ" only in Russian loans. Writing it in palatal stems seems superfluous. E.g. _тиш_ 'tooth'. "ӝ" is too alien :(( and less available :(((((( Btw, I've found *today* that Gagauz phonemes /dZ/, /Z/, /tS/ and /S/ are *always* palatalized. I think I'll make /tS/ and /dZ/ palatalized, at least this is the way the former is in Russian! And /dZ/ is met in KT (i.e., Kuman Tyli) only as a voiced variant of /tS/, e.g. _куманджа_ 'in Kuman (language/way)' (< _куман+ча_). <<<<<< >>Are you aware of the Karai language, which has replaced vowel >>harmony with consonant/palatalization harmony? I first read about it in Comrie's "Languages of the Soviet Union". He's not likely to mess up things, but his sources may have done. >>>>>> Well, today in the library I've made my notes about Karai from my major source Языки народов СССР, т.2 - Тюркские языки. -- Москва, 1967/ The Languages of the peoples of the USSR, v.2 - Turkic languages -- Moscow, 1967. The situation is not clear. The book says that the Halicia dialect lost /ö/ and /ü/ completely, and the Trakai dialect retains them in anlaut, where they are often substituted with /e/ and /ju/. Come and guess... Also, on Wednesday, August 11, I wrote: > I was quite suprised to see that some langs > are more radical in sound shifts that I planned for KT. This happened too be true not only in phonology. Guys, Turkic dialects are really weird and chaotic... Сав кал (= lit. stay healthy), -- Yitzik