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Re: discussing Kuman in lostlangs



Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:


> Isaac Penzev wrote:
>
> > And I'm still hesitating about too many things in Kuman, esp.
> > in the verb morphology. I'm also considering to add an extra letter
"zhe
> > with descender" to denote palatalized /Z;/ < CT */j-/.
>
> *Is* there really an /Z/ in native Turkish vocabulary?

I don't think so. But there will be tons of /Z/ in Slavic loans.

> What about writing /Z;/ as жь,

I'm still hesitating. It could have been a good idea, unless it had been
confusing vowel harmony.
If I use Russian soft vowels, we'll have to solve this: e.g., жёл 'road'
is clearly "hard", because final Л is not palatalized. So pl. would be
жёллар. But is жюк 'load' "hard" or "soft" (most final consonants do not
get palatalized)?
OTOH, if I use жь, it will produce more or less normal жьол (see
Ukrainian), but very strange жьулдуз 'star' and even more confusing жьюк
most ppl would love to read as [Z;juk], not [Z;uk]!

> since a minority language hardly
> can afford special fonts etc.?  NB even in OTL most fonts
> don't contain special characters like Җҗ!

Well, I *really* think about Kumans as guys from *our* universe... Is it
because they live in my native lands? OTL provides computer fonts with Җ
since Autumn 2002. This is the time Karsakov spelling could have
appeared. Or would he use a fake substitute, smth like ЖJ / жj digraph?

> Are you aware of the Karai language, which has replaced vowel
> harmony with consonant/palatalization harmony?

That is exactly what I meant by /ö/ > /jo/ and /ü/ > /ju/ shift. I just
didn't know the term.
I've read some materials about Karaim lang in our FL library. I looks
like the authors of this info may be confused by spelling. Indeed, in
some Karaim publications, as well as in standard Karachay-Balkar and
Kumyk orthography ё and ю denote /2/ and /y/ respectively, while the
other use ö and ÿ. And, besides, Karaim has at least three dialects that
are very different. Crimean Karaim is *verrry* close to Qırım Tatar
(Southern dialects), and Trakai Karaim and Halician Karaim are totally
different from the former. E.g. they completely lost front rounded
vowels: /2/ > /E/, /y/ > /i/.

-------------
<http://www3.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~djn/karaim/kCDlang.htm>
<http://www.turkiye.net/sota/karaim.html>
<http://www.turkiye.net/sota/karlang.html>

Thanx for the links,

Сав кал,
Yitzik