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I'm cutting large sections 'cause this has grown to rediculous proportions! --- Padraic Brown <elemtilas@hidden.email> wrote: Right now I'm > > reading a > > book titled _This is the Mass_ to get clearer > > on the concept. > > I've heard of it. From what I've heard, it's a > good introduction. > Good. Nothing like a lousy intro to get you started down the wrong path! > > No the starting point will be quite similar. > > The divergences will pile up over the > centuries. > > Depends on how innovative or conservative they > will be. The RCC *here* has been pretty > innovative. The Byzantines use the same liturgy > that was used a thousand years ago and pretty > close to 2000 years ago. > I'm figuring that out. Looks like I need to take a close look at Byzantine liturgy before I make any real decisions. > > > If you have Word Perfect, I have a number of > > > ancient liturgies archived. You'd be welcome > > to > > > that material too. > > > > > > > I'm sure I can find a computer somewhere with > > access. > > I'd love to see them. > > If you'ld prefer, I could save them as text > files. > That would be fantabulous! > Somewheres out there, there are sound files of an > entire Syrian liturgy. I listened to it at work > one time. I think it was about 2 hours. > I'm looking around but haven't found it yet. I h�ve just found a site that has a few bits of Melchite chant. Quite different. > But I see you're pretty well acquainted with > various liturgical chanting! > Don't let me fool you. I'm a neophyte. > > > Donatists as well (Sign of the Cross, I read something a couple of days ago about the Africans in Augustine's day appearantly using the thumb in making the sign. So thumbs it is for the Donatists, but direction, starting point, etc. are TBD (to be determined). > > > Icons are > > rejected, but not symbols (holdover from Punic > > religious practis which didn't allow pictures > > or > > sculptures of the gods, but did allow the use > > of unique symbols). > > Now th�t's cool! Was that an element of Punic > religion *here*? > Yes. The Punic temples and other religious markers did not allow sculptures or carvings of their gods and godesses, but did allow for the use of symbols representing them. That's the reason why I decided to make the Donatists reject images and then decided to make Carraxa a refuge for ikonoklastes. Also it makes for conflict with the Catholics, but removes one contention with the Muslims. Brought together a bunch of odd dynamics. > > How far back go the roots of the sign of the > > cross? > > It's pretty old. Old enough to have travelled > into China with the Church of the East. > Yeah. As I said I found reference to Augustine mentioning it. > > I > > know that Catholic and Orthodox differ in the > > direction of crossing. > > At least in the Catholic tradition, there's > actually no rule that governs which way to go. > It's just tradition that in the West, you go L-R, > and in the East, R-L. > > > Are there other differences > > among Syrian, Coptic, Ethiopian, etc.? > > I did some research for what form would be used > in the Eastlands of the World. It turns out that > in the Church of the East, you touch three > fingers to lips, then forhead, then heart then > both shoulders. So it's a little different. > Do you mean *here* or *there*. And if *here* which Church of the East? > See here for an interesting ecumenical discussion > between various Orthodox Christians re the sign > of the cross: > <http://www.christianforums.com/t1563249-sign-of-the-cross.html&page=2> > I'll check it out as soon as I can print it out (hey what are relatives for!?). > Wish I were there! Well, if you're ever up this > way... > Where is "up this way"? I must say that you've just taken me on a > whirlwind tour! This is one of those things that > us "mainstream" / Catholic / Protestant types > don't usually go in for. We don't church shop in > this way. I'm not saying it's bad! -- it > certainly allows you an amount and kind of > freedom we don't have. > Well, the only times I'd really concider it "church shopping" (if I understand what *you* mean by the term) was the stint as a Baptist in college (which was the most formal of my churhc experiences), the Chinese Bible Church period and then the time with the Lutherans in Taiwan. I joined the Baptist church on campus at the Baptist university I was attending because it was convinient, they had places for me to work (I taught Sunday school and helped with the worship team), and they didn't have a problem with my Charismatic beliefs as long as I didn't push them on others. The CBC time was preparation for moving to Taiwan. And once I got to Taiwan the Baptist church was dead as a door nail, the Presbyterian church was nice but too far away, and the Charismatic church's services were difficult to follow. I attended several meetings at with a group I consider a cult because my Deaf Taiwanese friends were members there. I wasn't going to attend there regularly! So the Lutheran church a few blocks from my house was convinient, friendly and comfortable. The various inter/non-denominational churches have been quite similar in doctrine/practice/custom to the A/G churhces I grew up in. > It is very different. I've never been in a > nonliturgical environment, except when watching > televangelists preach. > Oh dear. 'Fraid you don't have the best impression of us then! Don't get me wrong, some of them are ok, but as a group, I avoid them. > Even the more liturgical of Protestant forms seem > "lacking" to me. I have a little collection of > hymnals from various sources, and when younger > wondered "where's the rest of their mass?" ;) I'm > sure I'd be lost in a totally nonliturgical > environment! > As I would be *in* one. I guess the real reason I've never attended an RC or Orthodox service, despite my curiosity, is the intimidating nature of so many unknowns as far as sitting standing, etc. I my tradition we just say "Let's all stand together," and "Please, be seated," when it's time. *g* > Raised Roman Catholic. Fell in love with the > Byzantine liturgy. I find myself somewhere > between Christianity and Buddhism (have a look at > the Jesus Sutras sometime). > Heard of them, haven't looked yet. So > > far all I know for sure is the formula response > > after > > recieving the elements and the communion is > > most > > definitely in both kinds. > > I take it they mix a kind of doughy bread > (perhaps almost a flatbread) with wine? In the > Eastern church, it's sort of spooned out. > Ewww! You're kidding, right? No I guess not. Oh, I'm gonna be ill. > > I still haven't decided on > > the orientation of altars, etc. > > The earliest churches are usually oriented to the > east; the priest faces east too. Quite unlike > modern usage! > I'm pretty sure this will be true in Donatist churhces. Not sure about the direction the priest will face. > Looking forward to more, > Padraic. > Yeah. Me too. Adam Jin xividjilud djal su�u ed falud ul Jozevu pomu instanchid ul andjelu djul Dominu sivi, ed idavi achibid jun al su sposa. Ed nun aved cu�uxud ad sivi ancha nadud jan ad ul sua huiju primodjindu ed cuamad il su numi ul Jezu. Machu 1:24-25