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--- Adam Walker <carrajena@hidden.email> wrote:
>
>
> --- Padraic Brown <elemtilas@hidden.email> wrote:
>
> > --- Adam Walker <carrajena@hidden.email> wrote:
>
> > > Different from what? From the ordinary
> > > Donatist liturgy or from the Roman liturgy?
>
> >
> > The ordinary liturgy. You wrote above that
> you'd
> > started the liturgy. Down here you wrote that
> you
> > still didn't have the liturgy for Christmas
> day
> > that you'd hoped to write up. I took that to
> mean
> > that the Xmas day liturgy is different from
> the
> > normal. Sorry if I misunderstood!
> >
>
> So I did. That was a bit misleading. I guess
> I sould
> have said I've started thinking about the
> liturgy. I
> only have a few vague ideas. Right now I'm
> reading a
> book titled _This is the Mass_ to get clearer
> on the concept.
I've heard of it. From what I've heard, it's a
good introduction.
> > I wouldn't suspect the Donatist liturgy to be
> > radically different from either the eastern
> or
> > western of the day. They both went in about
> the
> > same direction. But frankly, I think the
> eastern
> > is much more beatiful.
> >
>
> No the starting point will be quite similar.
> The divergences will pile up over the
centuries.
Depends on how innovative or conservative they
will be. The RCC *here* has been pretty
innovative. The Byzantines use the same liturgy
that was used a thousand years ago and pretty
close to 2000 years ago.
> I've
> already noted in the book above that the
> Monsiegneur
> who wrote it has pointed out the "late
> addition" of
> nearly half the items he has so far discussed.
:) Sure. The basic form has remained pretty
constant -- it is based ultimately on the
synagogue services of the 1st century. With the
addition of the liturgy of the eucharist, which
is the reenacting of the last supper / sacrifice
on golgotha.
Lots of other little details have come and gone.
> Several others seem to have existed in one
> varriant
> liturgy or another, but didn't become
> compulsory parts of the Roman till late.
>
>
> > > If you meant from the regular Donatist
> liturgy,
> > > then
> > > it won't be all that different, just more
> > > elaborate.
> > > The problem being, I don't have more that a
> > > couple of
> > > vague suggestions written down yet, and
> being
> > > from a
> > > distinctly non-liturgical Christian
> background
> > > I have a lot of home work to do on basic
> ideas
> > like
> > > how a liturgy functions and what it
> includes.
> >
> > Try here for the text of the
> Byzantine/Orthodox
> > liturgy (Divine Liturgy of St. John
> Chrysostom):
> >
> <http://www.byzantines.net/liturgy/liturgy.htm>
> >
> > See here:
> >
>
<http://www.geocities.com/hawessos/noble_way/liturgy_thomas_lite.pdf>
> > for the liturgy I made for use by (Christian)
> > churches in the World.
> >
> > If you have Word Perfect, I have a number of
> > ancient liturgies archived. You'd be welcome
> to
> > that material too.
> >
>
> I'm sure I can find a computer somewhere with
> access.
> I'd love to see them.
If you'ld prefer, I could save them as text
files.
> And thanks for the link to the
> Byzantine Rite. that was the next thing I was
> going
> to track down! Your liturgy (the one that is
> frequently quoted in your sig's?)
Yep!
> has been the spark
> that got me thinking this direction to begin
> with.
Cool. I'm honored!
> > To get a feel for the sound, check this site
> out:
> > <http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/eng/music.html>
> You'll
> > need Real Player or similar. Truly beautiful.
> I
> > deliberately chose non-English chant so that
> you
> > could concentrate on the sound. (I like the
> Holy
> > Holy Holy best.)
> >
>
> Will check it out in a couple of minutes. I
> have
> several cd's of Gregorian and plain chant, a
> couple of
> Byzantine and one of Ethiopian. I need to see
> what I can find on the Syrian rite. . .
Somewheres out there, there are sound files of an
entire Syrian liturgy. I listened to it at work
one time. I think it was about 2 hours.
But I see you're pretty well acquainted with
various liturgical chanting!
> > Better still, find an Orthodox or Byzantine
> > Catholic church near you some Sunday and
> attend
> > Mass. You don't have to be Catholic to
> attend.
> > (Whereabouts are you?)
>
> It's something I've always thought about doing,
> but
> never have. I currently live in a small town
> one
> county south of Dallas. I'm sure there must be
> several Catholic churches in town. There is a
> Greek
> Orthodox congregation or two up in far north
> Dallas
> and at least one Coptic Orthodox not far from
> the
> Greeks. I even know of a tiny little
> ramshackle
> Ethiopian Orthodox Church in one East Dallas
> neighborhood where you wouldn't want to park
> your car.
> I did. I was looking for Ethiopian Christmas
> music. Long story.
Sounds like a good day trip!
> You'll also get a feel for
> > the sacramentals that would be important to
> the
> > Donatists as well (Sign of the Cross,
> veneration
> > of icons, etc. -- if they're early enough
> they
> > might even still have an active cult of the
> > martyrs)
>
> Extreeeeeemly active cult of the martyrs. It
> is one
> of the distinguishing features being one of the
> sticking points with the Catholics *here*.
I figured they might go in for martyt veneration.
The RCC hasn't entirely gotten away from it
*here* either: most older churches still have
relics in their altars. Comes from the time when
the liturgy was celebrated in the catacombs on
the tombs of martyrs.
> Icons are
> rejected, but not symbols (holdover from Punic
> religious practis which didn't allow pictures
> or
> sculptures of the gods, but did allow the use
> of unique symbols).
Now th�t's cool! Was that an element of Punic
religion *here*?
> How far back go the roots of the sign of the
> cross?
It's pretty old. Old enough to have travelled
into China with the Church of the East.
> I
> know that Catholic and Orthodox differ in the
> direction of crossing.
At least in the Catholic tradition, there's
actually no rule that governs which way to go.
It's just tradition that in the West, you go L-R,
and in the East, R-L.
> Are there other differences
> among Syrian, Coptic, Ethiopian, etc.?
I did some research for what form would be used
in the Eastlands of the World. It turns out that
in the Church of the East, you touch three
fingers to lips, then forhead, then heart then
both shoulders. So it's a little different.
See here for an interesting ecumenical discussion
between various Orthodox Christians re the sign
of the cross:
<http://www.christianforums.com/t1563249-sign-of-the-cross.html&page=2>
> > and an idea for the vestments that they
> > might be familiar with.
>
> Yeah, this one will require quite some thought.
>
> Especially since I'll need female versions of
> most,
> unless I decide to let the vestments be unisex.
I suspect they would be. Early Christian
vestments tend to be reminiscent of ancient
clothing, such as might be worn in early imperial
times. Each piece has a special meaning (the
maniple being a reminder of the binding placed
around Christ's wrists, etc), so unless men and
women (and early Christian priests) of Carthage
dressed radically differently, I'd bet the
vestments would be fairly unisexual.
> (Yes, my Donatists accept female clergy at
least at
> the parish level, perhaps higher.)
Some of the churches in the Eastlands have women
priests (and bishops) as well.
> > It would be very helpful
> > for you to go with someone familiar with the
> > liturgy, since you come from a non-liturgical
> > background.
>
> Quite true. Unfortunately, the only Greek I
> know is a
> Baptist, though she has Orthodox kin in town,
> and I
> try to stay far enough away that she can't
> touch my butt. (No kidding.)
I could see where that might be distracting! ;)
> I don't have any Catholic friends
> or co-workers currently. (Actually, I don't
> have any
> co-workers currently, but that's another tale.)
Wish I were there! Well, if you're ever up this
way...
> (Which one, if I may ask?)
>
> Well, of course you may. My background's a bit
> odd.
> The first church I attended was a Charismatic
> Southern
> Baptist church, that got asked to leave the
> convention
> and remove the word Baptist from their name for
> being
> Charismatic. Then I spent about a decade in
> Assemblies of God churches, which is my
> mother's
> background. (Dad's was Baptist, so
> first-mentioned
> was a compromise of sorts.) Then I attended
> several
> Charismatic/Pentecostal
> Nondenominational/Interndenominational
> churches. Then
> I was Baptist for about four years. Then
> Chinese
> Bible Church for several more. Then I moved to
> Taiwan
> and worshiped with a distinctly non-liturgical
> Lutheran church. Now it's a small
> non-denominational
> church with a Charismatic background, but not
> much
> practice of the gifts or other things usually
> associated.
I must say that you've just taken me on a
whirlwind tour! This is one of those things that
us "mainstream" / Catholic / Protestant types
don't usually go in for. We don't church shop in
this way. I'm not saying it's bad! -- it
certainly allows you an amount and kind of
freedom we don't have.
> Due to my background/personality I find myself
> wanting
> for spontineity when worshiping with the more
> formal
> of the churches I've joined and wanting for
> tradition
> when worshiping with the more charismatic. But
> I've
> never been in a liturgical environment.
It is very different. I've never been in a
nonliturgical environment, except when watching
televangelists preach.
Even the more liturgical of Protestant forms seem
"lacking" to me. I have a little collection of
hymnals from various sources, and when younger
wondered "where's the rest of their mass?" ;) I'm
sure I'd be lost in a totally nonliturgical
environment!
> Of course,
> > I'll be happy to answer any questions you
> have as
> > best I can.
> >
>
> Thankee.
It's no problem at all! Constructed religion is
almost more fun than constructed cultures! ;)
> Which background are you?
Raised Roman Catholic. Fell in love with the
Byzantine liturgy. I find myself somewhere
between Christianity and Buddhism (have a look at
the Jesus Sutras sometime).
> I'm sure you've
> stated before, but I'd hate to misrepresent.
No worries!
> > Note that I figure that Eastern forms would
> > probably be more familiar to the Donatists in
> the
> > time frame you're working with. The Modern RC
> > liturgy (of Paul VI) would be very strange
> > indeed!, if it even exists in their timeline.
> >
>
> Something that needs quite some sorting
> through. So
> far all I know for sure is the formula response
> after
> recieving the elements and the communion is
> most
> definitely in both kinds.
I take it they mix a kind of doughy bread
(perhaps almost a flatbread) with wine? In the
Eastern church, it's sort of spooned out.
> I still haven't decided on
> the orientation of altars, etc.
The earliest churches are usually oriented to the
east; the priest faces east too. Quite unlike
modern usage!
Looking forward to more,
Padraic.
> Adam
Almighty and Eternal God,
help us to realise that we are no longer the young and the restless;
but help us all remember that we have one life to live;
let us remain always close to you, walking not in Ryan's hope,
but in Christian hope, for our destination is Heaven, not J.R.'s Dallas.
May mothers and fathers of our community always pray to You "Bless
and protect all my children."
Like sands in the hour glass, so these are the days of our lives;
and so, as the world turns, and as some of us have to visit the Doctors
and the general hospital, may we always keep You dear, God,
as the Guiding Light.
Then, we won't be concerned with a foolish search for tomorrow,
walking on the edge of night. For together, dear Lord,
we will be able to create and build another world. Amen.
Rev. Carl A. Fisher, SSJ
--
Ill Bethisad --
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Come visit The World! --
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.