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Re: [romconlang] A question to get the list talking again




--- Padraic Brown <elemtilas@hidden.email> wrote:

> --- Adam Walker <carrajena@hidden.email> wrote:

> > Different from what?  From the ordinary
> > Donatist liturgy or from the Roman liturgy?  
> 
> The ordinary liturgy. You wrote above that you'd
> started the liturgy. Down here you wrote that you
> still didn't have the liturgy for Christmas day
> that you'd hoped to write up. I took that to mean
> that the Xmas day liturgy is different from the
> normal. Sorry if I misunderstood!
> 

So I did.  That was a bit misleading.  I guess I sould
have said I've started thinking about the liturgy.  I
only have a few vague ideas.  Right now I'm reading a
book titled _This is the Mass_ to get clearer on the
concept.

> I wouldn't suspect the Donatist liturgy to be
> radically different from either the eastern or
> western of the day. They both went in about the
> same direction. But frankly, I think the eastern
> is much more beatiful.
> 

No the starting point will be quite similar.  The
divergences will pile up over the centuries.  I've
already noted in the book above that the Monsiegneur
who wrote it has pointed out the "late addition" of
nearly half the items he has so far discussed. 
Several others seem to have existed in one varriant
liturgy or another, but didn't become compulsory parts
of the Roman till late.


> > If you meant from the regular Donatist liturgy,
> > then
> > it won't be all that different, just more
> > elaborate. 
> > The problem being, I don't have more that a
> > couple of
> > vague suggestions written down yet, and being
> > from a
> > distinctly non-liturgical Christian background
> > I have a lot of home work to do on basic ideas
> like
> > how a liturgy functions and what it includes.
> 
> Try here for the text of the Byzantine/Orthodox
> liturgy (Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom):
> <http://www.byzantines.net/liturgy/liturgy.htm>
> 
> See here:
>
<http://www.geocities.com/hawessos/noble_way/liturgy_thomas_lite.pdf>
> for the liturgy I made for use by (Christian)
> churches in the World.
> 
> If you have Word Perfect, I have a number of
> ancient liturgies archived. You'd be welcome to
> that material too.
> 

I'm sure I can find a computer somewhere with access. 
I'd love to see them.  And thanks for the link to the
Byzantine Rite.  that was the next thing I was going
to track down!  Your liturgy (the one that is
frequently quoted in your sig's?) has been the spark
that got me thinking this direction to begin with.


> To get a feel for the sound, check this site out:
> <http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/eng/music.html> You'll
> need Real Player or similar. Truly beautiful. I
> deliberately chose non-English chant so that you
> could concentrate on the sound. (I like the Holy
> Holy Holy best.)
> 

Will check it out in a couple of minutes.  I have
several cd's of Gregorian and plain chant, a couple of
Byzantine and one of Ethiopian.  I need to see what I
can find on the Syrian rite. . .

> Better still, find an Orthodox or Byzantine
> Catholic church near you some Sunday and attend
> Mass. You don't have to be Catholic to attend.
> (Whereabouts are you?) 

It's something I've always thought about doing, but
never have.  I currently live in a small town one
county south of Dallas.  I'm sure there must be
several Catholic churches in town.  There is a Greek
Orthodox congregation or two up in far north Dallas
and at least one Coptic Orthodox not far from the
Greeks.  I even know of a tiny little ramshackle
Ethiopian Orthodox Church in one East Dallas
neighborhood where you wouldn't want to park your car.
 I did.  I was looking for Ethiopian Christmas music. 
Long story.


You'll also get a feel for
> the sacramentals that would be important to the
> Donatists as well (Sign of the Cross, veneration
> of icons, etc. -- if they're early enough they
> might even still have an active cult of the
> martyrs) 

Extreeeeeemly active cult of the martyrs.  It is one
of the distinguishing features being one of the
sticking points with the Catholics *here*.  Icons are
rejected, but not symbols (holdover from Punic
religious practis which didn't allow pictures or
sculptures of the gods, but did allow the use of
unique symbols).

How far back go the roots of the sign of the cross?  I
know that Catholic and Orthodox differ in the
direction of crossing.  Are there other differences
among Syrian, Coptic, Ethiopian, etc.?

and an idea for the vestments that they
> might be familiar with. 

Yeah, this one will require quite some thought. 
Especially since I'll need female versions of most,
unless I decide to let the vestments be unisex.  (Yes,
my Donatists accept female clergy at least at the
parish level, perhaps higher.)


It would be very helpful
> for you to go with someone familiar with the
> liturgy, since you come from a non-liturgical
> background. 

Quite true.  Unfortunately, the only Greek I know is a
Baptist, though she has Orthodox kin in town, and I
try to stay far enough away that she can't touch my
butt. (No kidding.)  I don't have any Catholic friends
or co-workers currently.  (Actually, I don't have any
co-workers currently, but that's another tale.)

(Which one, if I may ask?) 

Well, of course you may.  My background's a bit odd. 
The first church I attended was a Charismatic Southern
Baptist church, that got asked to leave the convention
and remove the word Baptist from their name for being
Charismatic.  Then I spent about a decade in
Assemblies of God churches, which is my mother's
background.  (Dad's was Baptist, so first-mentioned
was a compromise of sorts.)  Then I attended several
Charismatic/Pentecostal
Nondenominational/Interndenominational churches.  Then
I was Baptist for about four years.  Then Chinese
Bible Church for several more.  Then I moved to Taiwan
and worshiped with a distinctly non-liturgical
Lutheran church.  Now it's a small non-denominational
church with a Charismatic background, but not much
practice of the gifts or other things usually
associated.  

Due to my background/personality I find myself wanting
for spontineity when worshiping with the more formal
of the churches I've joined and wanting for tradition
when worshiping with the more charismatic.  But I've
never been in a liturgical environment.


Of course,
> I'll be happy to answer any questions you have as
> best I can.
> 

Thankee.  Which background are you?  I'm sure you've
stated before, but I'd hate to misrepresent.

> Note that I figure that Eastern forms would
> probably be more familiar to the Donatists in the
> time frame you're working with. The Modern RC
> liturgy (of Paul VI) would be very strange
> indeed!, if it even exists in their timeline.
> 

Something that needs quite some sorting through.  So
far all I know for sure is the formula response after
recieving the elements and the communion is most
definitely in both kinds.  I still haven't decided on
the orientation of altars, etc.

Adam

Jin xividjilud djal su�u ed falud ul Jozevu pomu instanchid ul andjelu djul Dominu sivi, ed idavi achibid jun al su sposa. Ed nun aved cu�uxud ad sivi ancha nadud jan ad ul sua huiju primodjindu ed cuamad il su numi ul Jezu.

Machu 1:24-25