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--- In katanda@y..., "Jeffrey Henning" <jeffrey@h...> wrote: I am going to put the Morneauvian case roles in the same order that you put your letters (I changed your A to Z to be distinct) A = agent P = patient F = focus AP = agent and patient combined - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X acte Z Y | X performs the action Z on Y Three interpretations, not sure which: 1. X=A / Z=F / Y=P 2. X=AP / Z=F + Y=the audience = the benefactive (+ = needed oblique case tag). This makes the effect on the patient more indirect. 3. "performs the action Z" is lexicalized as one verb. Thus, X=A / Y=P - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X date Z Y | X confers the attribute Z on Y Two Possibilities: 1. Assuming date = "give" and Z = an object like "book" X=A / Z=F / Y=P 2. In katanda if Z is attributive like "duck" or "strong" then Z will be lexicalized with "date" into "turn into a duck" or "strengthen/give strength to" X=A / Y=P (Z is part of verb) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X detecte Z Y | X discovers the property Z of Y I think (Z Y) will be a noun phrase, example, "strength of John" In this case, X=AP and Z=F assuming X was trying to discover, otherwise X=P. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X dicte Z Y | X conveys the communication Z to Y Straightforward: X=A / Z=F / Y=P - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X esthe Z Y | X experiences the sentiment Z towards Y Two Possibilities: 1. I think in most cases "experiences the sentiment Z" would be lexicalized as one word, e.g. love, hate. In this case, X=P / Y=F (Z is part of verb) 2. Another interpretation: Z is a verbal noun, which is OPEN and takes Y as a focus-argument. Thus: X esthe (Z of Y) = X feels (Z=sentiment towards Y); X=P of "esthe" / Z=F of "esthe" and Y = F of Z - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X gene Z EX Y | X acquires the attribute Z from Y 1. My best guess here: Z is lexicalized into verb as in "date" example, and X=AP and Y = instrument = oblique argument, case tag required Example: "John gets his courage from (using) alcohol" Note John is clearly AP; Z could arguably be F, but i think in katanda it will part of verb; alcohol is really the semantic instrument, not a source in a true sense. 2. if John is not really responsible for the result of the verb, then Y may be upgraded to secondary agent or even agent as in "perde" example. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X habe Z DE Y | X has the attribute Z in relation to Y I think (Z Y) will be a noun phrase, example, "strength of John" In this case, X=P and Z=F. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X perde Z CAUSO Y | X loses the attribute Z because of Y 1. in katanda "loses the attribute Z" could be lexicalized into one verb. In this case, X=P and Y=A. Note that verb is clearly either inverse voice or passive with oblique agent. 2. It can argued that Y is not true agent but rather secondary agent. In this case Y is oblique and the verb is probably intransitive. Katanda can be very subtle at times. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X reacte Z Y | X responds to the stimulus Z applied to Y I think (the stimulus Z applied to Y) will be a noun phrase. In this case X=AP and Z=F - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X stimule Z Y | X evokes the response Z from Y X=A for sure. I think (the response Z from Y) will be a clause, e.g: "John makes (stimulates) (Mary jumps)" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X tene Z Y | X conserves the attribute Z on behalf of Y X = AP / Z lexicalized / not sure about Y - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > X tracte Z apo Y | X withdraws the attribute Z from Y X = A / Z is lexicalized / Y = P - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - A lot of the above could be interpreted different ways. --- Mike