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Do we count? (was: Digest Number 217)



On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, And Rosta wrote:

> John:
> > And Rosta scripsit:
> >
> > > Likewise, I accept that people are countable, but dispute that xod is,
> >
> > Why?  Once we have singularized xod, surely his cardinality is 1.
>
> The reasons I've given in other messages: since a contrast between one xod
> and two xods is impossible, I have no criteria for counting him. Certainly
> xod is a single person, I have no doubt about that. But I can't find
> grounds for thinking he can be counted as a single xod. Likewise, oxygen
> is one element, but I don't think it is one oxygen. I think it is
> uncountable, qua oxygen.


I am beginning to understand what you mean. But I don't see why you don't
simply say that, distinct from the fact that any other cardinality is
unthinkable, the number is countably one. How do we define countable? As
1:1 mapping to the whole numbers. And I can map the number of Oxygens just
as I can map the number of noses on your face. That the existence of a
second copy be inconceivable is NOT a requirement for counting. An example
might be the number of sides of a coin. A three-sided coin is not a coin;
neither can a coin have only one side; let's assume then that it's
impossible to imagine a coin with any but 2 sides. But that's 2, not tu'o.
I can't see this situation as any different than the number of Oxygens,
xods, or Misters.

The reason I gave tu'o as the cardinality of substance chunks is because
of the plastic nature of the boundaries between chunks. Pour a glass of
water into another glass and you have one glass; 1 + 1 = 1. That's a
situation where cardinality of pieces is meaningless and useless, and as
we all know, the useful way to deal with substances is using mass or
volume quantities.

This doesn't damage the fact that the cardinality of all the water in the
universe is 1.


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