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On Thu, 29 May 2003, And Rosta wrote: > John: > > And Rosta scripsit: > > > > > But in brief, the "FOR" creates > > > a logical abstraction such that the quantifier on the x2 is > > > *within* the abstraction. (For example, "This is a knife for > > > cutting a coconut" should not entail "There is a coconut that > > > this a knife for cutting".) > > > > I'm not sure I believe this. Let's talk about breadknives rather > > than mythical coconut knives (you need something more like an ax than > > a knife!), and let's look at the contingent falsity of the negated > > version of the implicature rather than the necessary truth of a positive > > implicature. I take it that this procedure is licit; if not, let's > > discuss it > > > > I then rewrite your claim as saying: "This is a knife for cutting bread" > > is consistent with the falsity of "There is some bread that this is a > > knife for cutting". Now I admit that "There is some bread that this > > knife cuts" might be false, but if there is no bread whatsoever that > > this knife is suited to cut, then I deny that it is a breadknife. So as > > long as the "for" appears in both the original and the rewritten forms, > > I conclude there is no scoping problem > > Unless I am missing something, this is just a recapitulation of the > "I need a doctor" discussion. > > Consider: > > This is a scheme for turning lead into gold. > This is a knife for cutting the foreskins off snails. > This is a spoon for ladling out any leftovers. > > None of these entail that there is an event of lead turning into gold, > that there is a snail's foreskin, or that there are any leftovers. In Lojban, events can "exist" without them ever having to have occurred (yet). So it is definitely a leftover spoon if it's intended to be used in case there are any leftovers, regardless of there being any leftovers right now. However, in "need a doctor", the Doctor isn't wrapped in a NU clause, and worse yet, might be tagged with an o-gadri. -- .o'i mu xagji sofybakni cu zvati le purdi [Caution!] There are five hungry Soviet cows in the garden!