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On Sat, 11 Jan 2003, Jordan DeLong wrote: > On Sat, Jan 11, 2003 at 07:47:47PM -0500, Invent Yourself wrote: > > On Sat, 11 Jan 2003, Jordan DeLong wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2003 at 06:35:02PM -0500, Invent Yourself wrote: > > > > On Sat, 11 Jan 2003, Jordan DeLong wrote: > > > > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2003 at 03:52:21PM -0500, Invent Yourself wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, 11 Jan 2003, Jordan DeLong wrote: > > > [...] > > > > > > > Can the Verification Principle be verified? Or is it just meaningless? > > > > > > > > > > > > Its presence can be verified if you design a test that determines if a > > > > > > person is following it, and subject someone to it. However, you probably > > > > > > meant to ask if the veracity of the principle could be tested or not. The > > > > > > answer is no; it's a prescription for human behavior, or a definition of > > > > > > the word "meaningful", not a statement about reality. However, "Pres. > > > > > > McGovern is more real than Sherlock Holmes" purports to be a statement > > > > > > about reality, but is actually meaningless. > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. "M is more real than SH" is a statement about the > > > > > amount of similarity between hypothetical circumstances and real > > > > > circumstances. It is not about reality only. > > > > > > > > simsa fi ma > > > > > > Which propositions are true in that set of circumstances, and what > > > things exist, etc. > > > > > > We can plainly say that Foo is more real than Bar if Foo differs > > > from reality in only a few propositions (and is still considered > > > "accessible", i.e. it'll differ in the neccesary manner to still > > > be internally consistent) and Bar differs by a comparitively larger > > > number. > > > > You intend to count propositions? Are you sure that they are countable? > > It is not neccesary to count things to be able to make claims about > them. This may, in your opinion, give the claim less value or > whatnot. But it's still a claim that can be made. I can claim "No > men are mortal" (or "all men are mortal") regardless of whether > I've counted every man, it would just be a false claim (or a true > one). How many propositions are we away from Irish Socrates or from President McGovern? Your mission is to show that the former is "more propositions different" than the latter. > > > > > But anyway, if the veracity of the VP can't be verified, then by > > > > > the VP we should view it as meaningless. So the VP is self-contradictory, > > > > > even if it is only supposed to be some sort of ethical code or > > > > > something, as you say. > > > > > > > > The VP constitutes my definition of "meaningful", and as a definition, it > > > > is not a statement about reality. The VP refers to statements that are > > > > alleged to be about reality. > > > > > > Definitions are statements about reality. They are statements about > > > how words are used. > > > > No. Definitions are prescriptive, observation of usage is descriptive. > > Definitions are not prescriptive. Or at least, they shouldn't be > (joke intended). > > > > If VP is really intended as a definition (which it isn't honestly), it > > > falls much short of how the word is actually used and is thus a failure. > > > > Philosophy commonly proposes specialized and well-defined meanings for > > terms that differ from common parlance by people who don't ponder the > > meanings of the terms they use anywhere near the amount that philosophers > > do. > > No. What philosophy commonly does is wank around and redefine terms > which have actual means, pervert them to mean something else, and > then prove god exists or whatever bullshit they wanted to do with > it. :) Whereas you undoubtedly have a very different method, as yet to be revealed. > > > If you just wanted a word for that particular meaning, you would > > > use a different, new word instead of hijacking a word with an > > > established meaning. > > > > > > Either way, the VP is meaningless by the VP definition of 'meaningless'. > > > > Repeating it doesn't make it so; neither does claiming to know the > > emotional motivations of people you can't name. > > But it's obviously so. Perhaps I didn't spell out the logic clearly > enough.... You admit that it's veracity cannot be verified. Assuming > the priniciple: everything unverifable is 'meaningless' I'll run with your exact phrasing of the VP as "everything unverifable is 'meaningless'". Now, what do you suppose the domain of "everything" is? Alternately, how can we detect the presence of meaning? -- // if (!terrorist) // ignore (); // else collect_data ();