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On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, And Rosta wrote: > xod: > > On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, And Rosta wrote: > > > xod: > > > > We are conflating substance-nouns with nouns that exhibit emergent > > > > properties by using lei for both of them. This doesn't help us, and in > > > > fact, I see no reason why Lojban needs a substance gadri at all. We can > > > > very easily refer to any quantity of beans or ice with le > > > > > > If "lo birje" is "a beer", then we need a way to say plain "beer" > > > > Why? lo birje is a beer, or it's some beer. I don't see why substance > > quantities need to be distinguished from individuals. The only difference > > is that, with individuals, we often agree on the amount that makes up an > > individual (how many pounds of doctor make a Doctor), whereas the size of > > "a beer" is more debatable > > If lo birje is a beer but not some beer, then the Lojban distinction > between lo birja and loi birja (or whatever the substance gadri is > if not beer) is not vacuous. It isn't vacuous for lo prenu and loi > prenu, and it would be nice if Lojban did what it claimed to do > and didn't make a distinction between mass nouns and count nouns, > so that lo gives a count interpretation and loi gives a mass > (substance) interpretation. > > > > Massifiers erase individuating boundaries, and that's what we need > > > here > > > > > > I agree that we have been conflating massification with collectivization > > > (groups with emergent properties). I intend to distinguish them by > > > using lu'o for the massifier and lu'oi for the collectivizer. Hopefully > > > the BF will also distinguish them somehow > > > > Hopefully we will reserve mass gadri for emergent masses, and continue the > > process of the erasure of the individual/substance distinction that Lojban > > started > > I don't understand the second half of this sentence. If we look at > predicates like prenu, then it can be individuated with lo, or > treated as a substance by loi (or whatever the substance gadri is). > If lo birja isn't only "a beer", then it would seem that Lojban > treats birja and prenu differently, the latter being individuable > and the former not. Now that we have the benefit of shared terminology, we can get to work. I want to use lei for collectives. There are no collectivations of substances -- it's meaningless. I don't see any difference between le and lei for substances. What do you mean "treated as a substance"? le prenu is one or more people, I didn't say how many. le djacu is some amount of water, I didn't say how much. lei prenu is a collective of people; lei djacu is meaningless, because water has no emergent, collective properties. (waves and surf are emergent properties of water *molecules*, I'll grant!) My proposal gives lei an *actual meaning*! Tell me what difference there is between "a beer" and "some beer", thus justifying why we need a distinct gadri to mark the difference. -- // if (!terrorist) // ignore (); // else collect_data ();