[YG Conlang Archives] > [jboske group] > messages [Date Index] [Thread Index] >
On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 11:05:23AM -0000, And Rosta wrote:
> Jordan:
> > On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 01:06:56AM -0500, John Cowan wrote:
> > > And Rosta scripsit:
> > > > It depends what "explain {le'e}" means. In earlier discussion I
> > > > explained how the meaning "stereotypical" was arrived at, but
> > > > argued that it was inconsistent with the regular relation between
> > > > o-gadri and e-gadri and that the meaning {le'e} should have is
> > > > clear but other than "stereotypical".
> > >
> > > CLL 6.5 explicitly debunks this term as only semi-appropriate
> > > In fact le'e = lo'e me le, the result of myopically singularizing
> > > the critters you have in mind
> >
> > This works for me, and appears to be consistent with existing usage
> > and the book
> >
> > Does this not also implicate, though, that lo'e must be "global
> > squinting" in order for le'e to have any use? (because le'e
> > essentially is the "local squinting")
> >
> > (this supports that lo'e merkypre cu nelci zoizo. baseball .zo. is
> > false, but le'e of the same is true, as would be expected under the
> > very high-level definitions of the gadri given in the book)
>
> I'm not sure if our messages are crossing or mine are getting
> delayed again, but I've already posted a message pointing out
> that one can squint locally at lo'i broda, which is not the
> same as squinting locally at le'i broda. In the same message I
> pointed out that the distinction between objective and subjective
> perspectives generalizes beyond the case of lo'e.
I'm not sure which order I got it. I think the following is the
message you mean? Anyway here's a response.
> Even on the subjective/local squinting view, if I am fixated
> on one American girl in particular, and subjectively end up seeing
> something heavily coloured by her when I squint away all intermerko
> differences, then there is no basis for arguing that I am talking
> about le'e merko, since the input to my squinting is lo'i merko,
> not le'i merko.
I think there is a basis: (i) you have a particular group of things
(in this case containing only 1 element) in mind when you start the
squinting, which suggests an e-gadri. (ii) your squinting is based
on actual existing creatures (in this case only one), instead of
just the general concept "merkypre". (iii) you should be able to
make these generalizations about these creatures without needing
to commit yourself to claiming they are members of lo'i merkypre,
and le'e satisfies this (lo'e me le). The input to your squinting
is not neccesarily lo'i merkypre as you claim. it is one thing
which you happen to think is a member of lo'i merkypre (i.e. it's
le'i merkypre). (iv) Furthermore, taking only 1 member of lo'i
merkypre as input is not sufficent to make a generalization (this
one isn't actually circular, even though it sounds that way---I
mean the word 'generalization' itself, not as in lo'e). (v) deciding
that lo'e is global, and le'e is global of a particular group of
entities (lo'e me le---i.e. local) allows us to easily specify which
in normal discourse. Your ad-hoc method leaves it completely
unspecified, and allows people to use global or local with either,
effectively nulling the diference between the two, in addition to
abandoning the normal e-gadri and o-gadri distinction.
I'm sure there's other arguments...
> I'm going to claim Lojbab and xod for my side, even if they aren't
> reading or understanding this thread or even if they think they
> disagree with me!
I doubt at least that lojbab would support it, as your side invalidates
the only existing explanation of lo'e and le'e. However the view
that le'e is local squinting (i.e. squinting through lo'e me le
like cowan said) and lo'e is global is perfectly consistent with
the book's examples.
Anyway it seems highly off topic if they aren't discussing it...
--
Jordan DeLong - fracture@hidden.email
lu zo'o loi censa bakni cu terzba le zaltapla poi xagrai li'u
sei la mark. tuen. cusku
Attachment:
binLKnyFDaqpN.bin
Description: application/ygp-stripped