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On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, And Rosta wrote: > xod: > > On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, John Cowan wrote: > > > > > Invent Yourself scripsit: > > > > > > > Do you sanction all that Jorge is recently saying concerning the "scope" > > > > of lo broda? What about the placement of tense sumtcita phrases? > > > > > > Sanction, no. Nor will I impose sanctions on it. :-) > > > > > > Sorry, but keeping up with jboske except in the most marginal way is > > > simply beyond me > > > > I understand > > > > If you feel that lo broda === da poi broda, then the order of introduction > > of lo broda makes an impact on the meaning. But what about le broda? > > That equivalence is standard and has gone virtually unchallenged for > years. (I say virtually, because pc wants there to be a difference, > but it's not a difference relevant to the discussion of scope. > > > And, to confirm, in your opinion, these Lojban sentences are actually > > identical in meaning? > > > > ca ro djedi lo nanmu cu cinba la meris > > lo nanmu ca ro djedi cu cinba la meris > > Certainly they aren't equivalent. I realize you're just asking for > clarification, but we can't go round discarding long- and firmly- > established principles just because the somewhat erratic processes > of documenting our discussions never led to them being properly > documented. If you realize that I'm only asking for clarification, then why launch into considering anything about discarding principles? I interpreted John's hesitation to agree with Jorge's statements as an indication that he also thought those two sentences were equivalent. Now I see that, on jboske, nobody but me thought they were. This whole issue has seriously dampened my enthusiasm for Lojban! I am now forced to revise my internal understanding of the Bridi. The CLL is totally not clear on these issues which are actually crucial and fundamental to Lojban. You logickers are simply able to translate your knowledge over, and this all seems natural to you, but I've never learned formal logic. Had it been made clear that it was a prerequisite, I would have. I thought the relevancy of variable order inside prenexes was restricted to sentences with prenexes and statements including da. Now, four years on, I learn that there are secret das inside every lo and le, such that sumti order totally affects the claim, and that tense sumtcita location matters. I could be mistaken, but I don't recall seeing any of this in the chapter on LE, on FA or SE, or on tense sumtcita. If it's there and I missed it, then it's my bad. But either way it's four years of intuition down the drain. -- "In the Soviet Union, government controls industry. In the United States, industry controls government. That is the principal structural difference between the two great oligarchies of our time." -- Edward Abbey