Re: [engelang] Xorban compounding revisited - engelang messages

From: Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com>
To: engelang@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: [engelang] Xorban compounding revisited

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 10:11 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@hidden.email> wrote:

From: Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 10:34 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@hidden.email> wrote:

Because a black horse is not just black and a horse (we won't go the whole Kung Sun Lung bit here) any more than a small star is both small and a star.

Why wouldn't the simple colors be handled as the intersective adjectives that they seem to be?

Because they are as relative to subject as other adjectives: compare a green house to green grass as to greenness. Color words also don't have conditions attached in Lojban (you could add them in Xorban, of course).

But green things share a universal property that's more or less absolute, namely having a surface perceptibly reflecting light of approximately 520–570 nm wavelength, within a certain amount of tone/hue/brightness variation. You don't have an infinitude of discrete, non-overlapping localized extensions of green things, you have one vast massively overlapping aggregated extension. In contrast "small" things are small strictly by whatever extension is being applied. (I'd rather avoid talking about "greenness" and "smallness"; I don't know what you mean unless you mean the intension. I do know what green things are.)

But that reflecting is neither necessary nor sufficient for something to be green, as any Psych 1 class will point out. The point is just that, as being small is relative to the object involved, so is being green enough to be called that: the "-ness" is about how green something is. From where I sit I can see a house which reflects a significant quantity of green light but is called the blue house because it reflects a quite unusually large amount of blue light (for a house). Similarly, when I look at my lawn, I can clearly distinguish the green grass (mainly oat grass at this time of year) from the other grass, which is still green by your definition (and probably others).

As far as nonintersectives like "small", they can be generally handled intersectively as well, because it's usually obvious what standard with respect to which something is said to be small. e.g.:

la tfa je lnta trca.
"That's a small (lit: unmassive) star."

... obviously means that's the star has a small mass by the standard of stars, not by the standard of cats or something. If you wish to be pedantic,

la tfa je li trci lntaki trca.
"That's starwise a small star."
"That's a star small as far as stars go."

... in which the speaker is emphasizing that the star is unmassive only by star standards, not by our standards. If you compare apples and oranges, then the x2 of linto becomes necessary:

la je tfa mlta li grki tljaki.
"That cat is heavy by dog standards."

... which probably means that someone should put the cat on a diet. All of this stuff comes from Lojban, which seems to me a bit that got done right.

Nice joke, but without the limitors the results is illogical. If it is both small and a star, then it is small, which it isn't. If you save that by adding the condition, then the whole is redundant, so prolix and against another goal of the reconstruction. Incidentally, black horses (or at least black cats) aren't even black (it's a hard color to get in living creatures, who tend to use melanin which -- despite its name -- is a brown pigment)

I may be missing your point, because I fail to see any mystery here: "je mmto'eka'a mmto'eke'e" is true and means we both have mothers, even though we don't have the same mother. Likewise "je sa trca lntako'e sa mlta lntako'e" is also true and means that some stars and some cats both are unmassive, though obviously not by the same standard.

The point is that. when you infer from the (putatively) true claim that it's a small star to that it is small, you lose the context and come up false, while the context is not relevant for the mother case.

As far as "black" -- again these are basic color terms and 10-12 of them are intended to cover most of the color cone, perhaps even overlapping slightly. Very dark brown cats pass for black.

Precisely, but they are not black except by cat standards.

Also, there are increasing complicated cases, where conjunction just won't work: pretty little girls school, to take a classic. Or cannibal fish. At some point you have to allow modifier-modified pairs and the easiest place to start is at the beginning.

Cannibal fish is a good one -- I'll come back to it.

I like "man-eating lion" , too, though it does not have the same reliance on the following noun -- it just sets up donkey sentences: a man-eating lion shits 'im where he eats 'im.

"Pretty little girls' school" presents no problems in Xorban. Logical conjunction stands for itself. I am going to use "ju" to crudely approximate the tanru relationship, except that "girl type-of school" will invoke the proper predicate place. Normally I wouldn't use "ju" like this. There is one exception, #39, which forces me to coordinate unlike logical structures. Another interesting one is #3, which I think is ambiguous in Lojban, and is the only one that gets translated with the group operator.

Tell me if you see any mistakes:

Using ju saves you from the logical problem, so, of course, gets you off that hook. But it still does not seem to me to give an accurate reading even at #1. We get things that are pretty and little and girls at the same time, but there is no reason on that basis alone to think that they are pretty girls or even little girls, let alone that they are girls whose being little is pretty, as the intended meaning is here (it seems, for example, to give, at best, that their prettiness is in a little sort of way).

16.1)    melbi cmalu nixli ckule
    ((pretty type-of little) type-of girl) type-of school
    school for girls who are beautifully small

li ju ju mlbi cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.2) melbi je cmalu nixli ckule
    ((pretty and little) type-of girl) type-of school
    school for girls who are beautiful and small

li ju je mlbi cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.3) melbi bo cmalu je nixli ckule
    ((pretty type-of little) and girl) type-of school
    school for girls and for beautifully small things

li gi ju mlbi cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.4) ke melbi cmalu nixli ke'e je ckule
    ((pretty type-of little) type-of girl) and school
    thing which is a school and a beautifully small girl

je ju ju mlba cmla nxla ckla

16.5) melbi je cmalu je nixli ckule
    ((pretty and little) and girl) type-of school
    school for things which are beautiful, small, and girls
    Note: same as 16.21

li je je mlbi cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.6) melbi bo cmalu je nixli je ckule
    ((pretty type-of little) and girl) and school
    thing which is beautifully small, a school, and a girl
    Note: same as 16.14

je je ju mlba cmla nxla ckla

16.7) ke melbi je cmalu nixli ke'e je ckule
    ((pretty and little) type-of girl) and school
    thing which is a school and a girl who is both
        beautiful and small

je ju je mlba cmla nxla ckla

16.8) melbi je cmalu je nixli je ckule
    ((pretty and little) and girl) and school
    thing which is beautiful, small, a girl, and a school

je je je mlba cmla nxla ckla

16.9) melbi cmalu nixli bo ckule
    (pretty type-of little) type-of (girl type-of school)
    girls' school which is beautifully small

ju ju mlba cmla li nxli cklako'eki

16.10)   melbi je cmalu nixli bo ckule
    (pretty and little) type-of (girl type-of school)
    girls' school which is beautiful and small

ju je mlba cmla li nxli cklako'eki

16.11)   melbi cmalu nixli je ckule
    (pretty type-of little) type-of (girl and school)
    something which is a girl and a school
        which is beautifully small

ju ju mlba cmla je nxla ckla

16.12)   melbi bo cmalu je nixli bo ckule
    (pretty type-of little) and (girl type-of school)
    something which is beautifully small and a girls' school

je ju mlba cmla li nxli cklako'eki

16.13)   melbi je cmalu nixli je ckule
    (pretty and little) type-of (girl and school)
    a pretty and little type of thing which is
        both a girl and a school

ju je mlba cmla je nxla ckla

16.14)   melbi bo cmalu je nixli jebo ckule
    (pretty type-of little) and (girl and school)
    thing which is beautifully small, a school, and a girl
    Note: same as 16.6

je ju mlba cmla je nxla ckla

16.15)   melbi jebo cmalu je nixli bo ckule
    (pretty and little) and (girl type-of school)
    thing which is beautiful and small and a girl's school
    Note: same as 16.30

je je mlba cmla li nxli cklako'eki

16.16)   melbi jebo cmalu je nixli jebo ckule
    (pretty and little) and (girl and school)
    thing which is beautiful, small, a girl, and a school

je je mlba cmla je nxla ckla

16.17)   melbi cmalu bo nixli ckule
    (pretty type-of (little type-of girl)) type-of school
    school for beautiful girls who are small

li ju mlbi ju cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.18)   melbi cmalu je nixli ckule
    (pretty type-of (little and girl)) type-of school
    school for beautiful things which are small and are girls

li ju mlbi je cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.19)   melbi je cmalu bo nixli ckule
    (pretty and (little type-of girl)) type-of school
    school for things which are beautiful and are small girls

li je mlbi ju cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.20)   ke melbi cmalu bo nixli ke'e je ckule
    melbi bo cmalu bo nixli je ckule
    (pretty type-of (little type-of girl)) and school
    thing which is a school and a small girl who is beautiful

je ju mlba ju cmla nxla ckla

16.21)   melbi je cmalu jebo nixli ckule
    (pretty and (little and girl)) type-of school
    school for things which are beautiful, small, and girls
    Note: same as 16.5

li je mlbi je cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.22)   melbi je cmalu bo nixli je ckule
    (pretty and (little type-of girl)) and school
    thing which is beautiful, a small girl, and a school
    Note: same as 16.38

je je mlba ju cmla nxla ckla

16.23)   ke melbi cmalu je nixli ke'e je ckule
    (pretty type-of (little and girl)) and school
    thing which is beautifully small, a beautiful girl,
        and a school

je ju mlba je clma nxla ckla

16.24)   melbi je cmalu jebo nixli je ckule
    (pretty and (little and girl)) and school
    thing which is beautiful, small, a girl, and a school

je je mlba je cmla nxla ckla

16.25)   melbi cmalu bo nixli bo ckule
    melbi ke cmalu ke nixli ckule [ke'e] [ke'e]
    pretty type-of (little type-of (girl type-of school))
    small school for girls which is beautiful

ju mlba ju cmla li nxli cklako'eki

16.26)   melbi ke cmalu nixli je ckule [ke'e]
    pretty type-of (little type-of (girl and school))
    small thing, both a girl and a school, which is beautiful

ju mlba ju cmla je nxla ckla

16.27)   melbi cmalu je nixli bo ckule
    pretty type-of (little and (girl type-of school))
    thing which is beautifully small
        and a girls' school that is beautiful

ju mlba je cmla li nxli cklako'eki

16.28)   melbi je cmalu bo nixli bo ckule
    melbi je ke cmalu nixli bo ckule [ke'e]
    melbi je ke cmalu ke nixli ckule [ke'e] [ke'e]
    pretty and (little type-of (girl type-of school))
    thing which is beautiful and a small type of
        girls' school

je mlba ju cmla li nxli cklako'eki

16.29)   melbi cmalu je nixli jebo ckule
    melbi cmalu je ke nixli je ckule [ke'e]
    pretty type-of (little and (girl and school))
    thing which is beautifully small, a beautiful girl,
        and a beautiful school
    Note: same as 16.37

ju mlba je cmla je nxla ckla

16.30)   melbi je cmalu jebo nixli bo ckule
    melbi je ke cmalu je nixli bo ckule [ke'e]
    pretty and (little and (girl type-of school))
    thing which is beautiful, small and a girls' school
    Note: same as 16.15

je mlba je cmla li nxli cklako'eki

16.31)   melbi je ke cmalu nixli je ckule [ke'e]
    pretty and (little type-of (girl and school))
    beautiful thing which is a small girl and a small school

je mlba ju cmla je nxla ckla

16.32)   melbi jebo cmalu jebo nixli jebo ckule
    pretty and (little and (girl and school))
    thing which is beautiful, small, a girl, and a school

je mlba je cmla je nxla ckla

16.33)   melbi ke cmalu nixli ckule [ke'e]
    pretty type-of ((little type-of girl) type-of school)
    beautiful school for small girls

ju mlba li ju cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.34)   melbi ke cmalu je nixli ckule [ke'e]
    pretty type-of ((little and girl) type-of school
    beautiful school for things which are small
        and are girls

ju mlba li je cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.35)   melbi ke cmalu bo nixli je ckule [ke'e]
    pretty type-of ((little type-of girl) and school)
    beautiful thing which is a small girl and a school

ju mlba je ju cmla nxla ckla

16.36)   melbi je ke cmalu nixli ckule [ke'e]
    pretty and ((little type-of girl) type-of school)
    thing which is beautiful and a school for small girls

je mlba li ju cmli nxli cklako'eki

16.37)   melbi cmalu je nixli je ckule
    pretty type-of ((little and girl) and school)
    thing which is beautifully small, a beautiful girl,
        and a beautiful school
    Note: same as 16.29

ju mlba je je cmla nxla ckla

16.38)   melbi je ke cmalu bo nixli je ckule [ke'e]
    pretty and ((little type-of girl) and school)
    thing which is beautiful, a small girl and a school
    Note: same as 16.22

je mlba je ju cmla nxla ckla

16.39)   melbi je ke cmalu je nixli ckule [ke'e]
    pretty and ((little and girl) type-of school)
    thing which is beautiful and is a small school
        and a girls' school

je mlba ju je cmla li nxli psika ckla

16.40)   melbi je ke cmalu je nixli je ckule [ke'e]
    pretty and ((little and girl) and school)
    thing which is beautiful, small, a girl, and a school

je mlba je je cmla nxla ckla

--
co ma'a mke

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