Re: [ceqli] Place structure - ceqli messages

On Feb 7, 2007, at 11:25 AM, Jim Henry wrote:

On 2/7/07, Rex May <rmay@hidden.email> wrote:

> What I have in mind is a much less complicated version, probably more Mandarin/English than Loglan, thus
>
>
> go don ba zi. I give something to you.
.......

> Basically, it gives all Ceqli words a possibility of three places. Subject, object, and indirect object. I keep the be conversion because it increases vocabulary without increasing roots. I reject more complex conversions for obvious reasons. I want to extract all the advantages of Loglan while rejecting the disadvantages. To me, the place structure idea of Loglan was sort of a good idea run into the ground. But imitating the terseness of Eng/Mandarin is sentences like He gives me a book is a plus. Systematizing it as a place structure doesn't, I think, make it more complicated.

OK. Can you give us some more examples of more complex
sentences where the direct and indirect oobject or both are a phrase of several
words (one or more modifiers and a head), and see how often there might
be ambiguity about where the direct object leaves off and the direct
object starts?
Or would a preposition be required to demarcate them whenever the DO and IO
or both is more than one word?

Great question. Let's see

to haw jino pa don to to kanin sa karn to felin.

the good man gave the dog's meat to the cat.

That seems to work okay, but we will have a marker when it's needed, or even when it's not:

to haw jino pa don to to kanin sa karn ke to felin.

Where "ke" means either "to" or "indirect object," I'm not sure which.

Hm. That could also be a coverb, "ben" (X benefits Y), so:

to haw jino pa don to to kanin sa karn, ben to felin.

And dir obj can be marked with "bo", and subject with "su," when necessary.

Another

to xnel sa kanin pa voy to to gosa fren sa byel sa dom to pyu sa xway sa ceq hu sta franzo.

The fast dog went to my friend's white house from the biggest city in France.

Here, again, the indirect object seems to get lost. Probably the best thing for this would be to use a coverb, "sali" meaning "leave".

to xnel sa kanin pa voy to to gosa fren sa byel sa dom, sali to pyu sa xway sa ceq hu sta franzo.

You're quite right. Place structures, especially the third, will often be confusing, and when they are, use coverbs. Make sense? I'm completely with you in that I -don't- want Loglanish complications.