[YG Conlang Archives] > [ceqli group] > messages [Date Index] [Thread Index] >
on 2/21/04 3:05 PM, HandyDad at lsulky@hidden.email wrote: > Is it possible to summarize the mechanisms for answering questions > about verbs; in other words, marking the verb's places? > > QUESTION 1: What is the action? MECHANISM: Tense marker, or non-tense- > specific verb marker. OK > > QUESTION 2: Who or what acts? MECHANISM: Position before verb. Yes > > QUESTION 3: Who or what is acted upon? MECHANISM: Position after > verb, plus marker separating verb from object phrase (such as noun > phrase marker). yes > > QUESTION 4: What is the target of the action? MECHANISM: Indirect > object marker. yes > > QUESTION 5: Where is action performed? MECHANISM: Verb-as-preposition. yes > > So far, so good. Now I get fuzzy: > > QUESTION 6: Why is action performed? MECHANISM: Functional that marks > a phrase that describes the purpose? Yes, I think. > > QUESTION 7: When is action performed? MECHANISM: Time modifier? Tense > marker? Yes, or a 'free modifier' like 'padey'. For clarity, can also say 'do padey'. > > QUESTION 8: How is action performed? MECHANISM: Verb modifier? > > Could these latter three all be handled with verbs-as-prepositions, > like #5? Yes, I think so. > > On a related note, I thought this morning that maybe some verbs have > a second indirect object: the source or origin. > > S returns D to I1 from I2. Yes, but by and large we need a preposition here. I mean, this is like what you were saying about loglan. Go pa ber to hon zi da. I carried the book from you to him. When we often want to leave one of the IO's out. Go pa ber to hon saw da. I carried the book from him. So, I'd say, we -can- treat a verb like that as a 4-place, but in reality, in practice, probably we'd use case markers/prepostions: Go pa ber to hon ko zi saw da. > > Any verb represents a transaction...a change of state. This change of > state has an agent (or Subject); a focus (or Direct object); a > patient (or Indirect object); and perhaps an origin? The origin is > usually the same as the subject, but not always. > > 'I think a thought to myself from me.' > > We tend to think of 'think' as a 2-place, or intransitive, verb. > It's easy to leave out all the places except the subject, 'I'. > > 'I tell the truth to you from me.' > > We think of 'tell' as a 3-placer, figuring that the origin 'me' is > always the same as the subject 'I'. > > 'I pass the salt to Ma from Pa.' > > Shouldn't 'pass' be considered a 4-place verb? How about 'return'? If > so, do we need one more marker for the origin role? Hm. I think we need to -not- think in terms of marking places with specific markers, but instead use preposition/case markers. Loglan has, BTW, these case markers: Table 4.1 The Eleven Optional Case Tags B beu Bekti (object) '-/in' Patients, Parts, Properties C cau Canli (quantity) 'by/for' Quantities, Amounts, Values D dio Dirco (direction) 'to/for' Recipients, Beneficiaries, Destinations F foa Folma (full) 'in/of' Wholes, Sets, Collectivities J jui Junti (young) 'than' Lessers in greater/lesser than relations K kao Kakto (act) '-/by' Actors, Agents, Doers N neu Nerbi (necessary) 'under' Conditions, Fields, Circumstances P pou Proju (produce) '-' Products, Outputs, Purposes G goa Groda (big) 'than' Greaters in greater/lesser than relations S sau Satci (start) 'from' Sources, Origins, Reasons, Causes V veu Vetci (event) 'by/via' Events, States, Deeds, Means, Routes, Effects And you can read about them here: http://www.loglan.org/Loglan1/chap4.html#sec4.31 Now, we can have a small set of things that are pure prepositions, which I'm beginning to think we need. ko - to, motion towards/to. do - at the time of ( I think it can serve both as tense marker and preposition. The Loglan equivalent does) ci - at (same as 'do') saw - from va - sign of direct object Those are the basics. All others are verb/prepostions, which can be made into undisputable prepositions with 'vo' prefix. Will that do it? -- Rex F. May (Baloo) Daily cartoon at: http://www.cnsnews.com/cartoon/baloo.asp Buy my book at: http://www.kiva.net/~jonabook/book-GesundheitDummy.htm