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Looking for examples of usage of lo as Kind, I found an interesting case, where it appears that loi, lo'e and lo are all used for Kind in the same sentence. The sentence is from the tikitikitembo translation by John Cowan, found at http://www.lojban.org/files/texts/tikitiki Anyone who has writen a long enough text in Lojban (say 500 words) has almost certainly fallen into using lo for Kind at some point. .i loi jugypre pujeca te cmene lo'e pamoi panzi lo barda cmene .i te cmene lo'e za'umoi panzi lo cmalu cmene The intended meaning is quite clear. Indeed saying {l* jugypre pujeca te cmene l* pamoi panzi l* barda cmene .i te cmene l* za'umoi panzi l* cmalu cmene} is enough to get the message across. All we want to say is "Chinese people give first child long name, and give non-first child short name". We could get into all the details of how the avatars get distributed, say "most Chinese that have children give to each of their first child one long name, and to each of their non-first child one short name", but even that is not a full account of the distribution. We don't need to get into those details, because we already know that in general different avatars of people get different avatars of names and so on. The only important information here is to associate long name with first child and short name with non-first child. As written, with John's current understanding of lo'e, the sentence would seem to say something like "there is a group of Chinese people and some long name such that those people acting together give the typical first child that long name, and there's some short name such that they give the typical non-first child that short name. Which seems not to be what is wanted. With And's reading of lo'e it is only a bit less nonsensical: There is a group of Chinese people that give the typical first child a long name and the typical non-first child a short name. This one at least does not say that there is some long name that is typical of the first child, but just that the first child tipically has a long name. It still has the problem that the same group of namers get to name the typical child. To make things more confusing, the last sentence of the story is: naukiku loi jugypre [cu] te cmene ro panzi le cmalu cmene where now it seems that {le} is used for Kind too. (Unless it really is supposed to say that all the children get the same avatar of Mr. Short Name.) mu'o mi'e xorxes __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com