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On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Jorge Llambías wrote:
>
> --- Invent Yourself <xod@hidden.email> wrote:
> > On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Jorge Llambías wrote:
> > > If so, isn't the restricted CLL-lo'e a waste of cmavo? A Kind-lo'e could
> > > include CLL-lo'e and easily and accurately specify its restricted
> > > application with {na'o} when so required:
> > >
> > > lo'e cinfo na'o xabju le friko
> > > Lions typically live in Africa.
> >
> > But this na'o doesn't add the definitionality implied by lo'e'e.
>
> Add {ca'e} if you want definitionality, but are you saying that
> lions live in Africa by definition of "lion"? If all lions in Africa
> were to become extinct, we would need to redefine the concept of
> "lion"?
ca'e indicates it's on the authority of the speaker, but definitions are
larger than that.
According to Nick:
There has been an undercurrent of using lo'e as an intensional article in
Lojban, though the main proponent of this is Jorge. CLL lo'e is not an
intensional article, but a statement of typicality: lo'e does generate an
intension, but not the same intension as "Mr". Our alternatives are to
reassign "Mr" to lo'e, and dispense with CLL lo'e --- which would leave
the well-defined le'e orphaned --- or to leave CLL lo'e alone. Jorge has
advocated the former, on the grounds that CLL lo'e is nowhere near as
useful as the use he would put lo'e to. I, of course, took the opposing
view; and And has been extolling the "Nicolaic lo'e" (for which the credit
properly goes to John), which was my way of differentiating between CLL
lo'e and "Mr": lo'e makes claims that are generic and intrinsic to the
referent, i.e. "Lions live in Africa"; but claims that are not an
intrinsic property of the referent should be made with "Mr" instead.
"Lions live in Africa" is a claim in some way definitional of lions, or at
least characteristic of them. "I like lions", or "I study lions", is not.
Even though the referent is in a sense the same --- Lion-kind --- I think
it dangerous to conflate the two kinds of claim. The syntax of the
predications involved --- x1 vs x2 position of lo'e --- might seem a way
out of this; but of course that is untenable in Lojban: lo'e cifno cu
citka lo'e mirlrantelope is a claim characteristic of both lion and
antelope.
http://www.lojban.org/wiki/index.php/gadri%20report%2C%20aug%202003
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