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Lojbab:
> At 11:02 AM 1/13/03 -0500, John Cowan wrote:
> >Robert LeChevalier scripsit:
> >
> > > I disagree. zi'o applies when there is no value that fills in the place,
> > > not merely when it is undesirable to fill in the place, but a correct
> > value
> > > does exist. The latter is clearly part of zo'e and therefore not zi'o
> > > (because they are mutually exclusive by the discussion of CLL)
> >
> >Not so. With zo'e, a definite value exists in the speaker's mind but is
> >not being expressed, and "FA ma" (for some value of FA) is a reasonable
> >question
>
> Close. A definite value SHOULD exist. The speaker may not have that value
> in mind, nor know that value but FA ma is still a valid question even if
> the speaker doesn't know it
Yes. +specific references, by e-gadri, work thus too.
> But given your non-exclusive definition of zi'o, if you insert zi'o, the
> sentence remains true, and therefore zi'o is a valid answer to FA ma,
> because FA ma asks for a sumti that makes the sentence true
My understanding is that FA ma asks for a sumti that makes true the
incomplete proposition expressed by the sentence. Since adding zi'o
would not complete the proposition but would instead change the
selbri (of the proposition), zi'o is not a possible answer, though
it is a possible response. Thus, {mi djuno LOdu'u ma kau catra ko'a}
is not true if all I know is {LOdu'u zi'o catra ko'a}.
> > With zi'o, a definite value may or may not exist
> >I declare this to be true by founder intent (maybe there should be an
> >evidential for this)
>
> If you mean by inventor-of-zi'o intent, I can't argue, and ca'e is adequate
> (but ka'u would give a different answer because CLL and the cmavo list do
> not say that). But then you have numerous contradictions including the
> fact that zi'o can be used in BOTH versions of your "translated joke"
> example. and we have no word that means "a definite value DOES NOT exist"
Since I was around when zi'o was invented, I can testify that it has
always meant what John says it means.
--And.