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Re: [jboske] Re: gadri paradigm: 2 excellent proposals



Intemperate response.

>The ontology is certainly a sound basis for anything to be said on gadri

> > That would then give the following table of shortest forms:
> >
> > set: lo'i le'i la'i
> > quantified: PA PAle PAla
> > substance: lo le la
> > collective: loi lei lai
> > 'unique': lu'airo (~lo'e) lu'airole (~ le'e) lu'aila
>Doing the following:
>* Regarding 'substance' as the basic meaning of {loi}

That seems to contradict the above

Pft. The ontology is settled, the issue is what to assign to what.

>* Allowing the statistical article to go back to gismu
??? fadni per below?

Inasmuch as fadni is a gismu, yes.

>* Rejecting the DeLong/LeChevalier line of {lo prenu remei cu bevri},
>because if {remei} is a mass
as it is defined in the word lists (not just CLL)

And since both the word lists and the CLL have no idea that there is a distinction between substance and collective, and think they're both the same, you'll pardon me if on this, I suspend fundamentalism.

> we're back to square one (it could still
>be one person doing the carrying), and if {remei} is a collective...
>well, that might work, but it needs a lot of thinking
Depending on how many gadri members there are in the three series, places could be added to -mei to allow access to them but I stand by the x1 unless
you've got a wallop of usage to go along with all this theory.

Usage? USAGE?! That's rich, when you never defined the difference between collective and substance in the first place.

There will be a few things on which everything needs to be thrown out, and I still think this is one of them. I am offering you a non-disruptive way of making a collective/substance distinction; you should be taking it.

Scenario A: Jim and John jointly carry the piano

le re remna na bevri le pipno
lei re remna ja'a bevri le pipno
lo remei be le'i remna ja'a bevri le pipno

Scenario B: Jim carries the piano, John doesn't

le re remna na bevri le pipno
lei re remna ja'a bevri le pipno (if one of us, then all of us: substance/mass) lo remei be le'i remna na bevri le pipno (remei indicates collective, not substance.)

Scenario C: Jim and John's severed limbs carry the piano

le re remna na bevri le pipno
lei re remna ja'a bevri le pipno
lo remei be le'i remna na bevri le pipno

There's no real point in insisting that the remei is re unless you're counting its members as distinct participants in a joint process. (Like xod says, if you're really treating things as a mass, you're not counting anything, it's just a tu'omei.) This makes {mei} quite sensible for collective. And I honestly doubt anyone ever used it for substance; I believe Lojbanists would accept Scenario C.

If everyone does, then case closed: we have our solution.

I generally approve of your "fundamentalist" pose - whether I agree with all the conclusions, it sure cuts away a lot of the ornate embellishments
that the semanticists seem to want.

Eh. When I'm convinced that an embellishment is necessary, I moderate the fundieism. But the point of fundamentalism isn't avoiding new features; it's backward compatibility.

There is some stuff jboskeists do that I don't get and don't feel I need get. But the distinction between substance and collective? Come on, that's basic stuff.

(I should interject at this point that
one criticism that Lojban has seen from old Loglanists as well as some
newcomers who have turned away, is that we have added lots of baroque
ornateness to what was otherwise a relatively simple language. We should bear this criticism in mind before ascending to new heights of baroqueness.

You really don't want to know what I think of such criticism. If you wanted simple, go learn Klingon.

       --                                                     --
       Dr Nick Nicholas, French/Italian, University of Melbourne
    nickn@hidden.email                     http://www.opoudjis.net
"My most mighty, God-respected, God-glorified, God-promoted,
God-governed, God-magnified Holy Lord King. Health and merriment to
your soul, vigour and well-being to your divine and royal body,
prosperity to the benefactions issuing from your hand, and everything
else good and salvific does my humble self wish to your Holy Majesty
on behalf of God Almighty."
    --- Miklosich & Mueller I. CLXXXIV; Patriarch to Emperor.