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Intemperate response.
>The ontology is certainly a sound basis for anything to be said on gadri
> > That would then give the following table of shortest forms: > > > > set: lo'i le'i la'i > > quantified: PA PAle PAla > > substance: lo le la > > collective: loi lei lai > > 'unique': lu'airo (~lo'e) lu'airole (~ le'e) lu'aila >Doing the following: >* Regarding 'substance' as the basic meaning of {loi}
That seems to contradict the above
Pft. The ontology is settled, the issue is what to assign to what.
>* Allowing the statistical article to go back to gismu ??? fadni per below?
Inasmuch as fadni is a gismu, yes.
>* Rejecting the DeLong/LeChevalier line of {lo prenu remei cu bevri}, >because if {remei} is a mass as it is defined in the word lists (not just CLL)
And since both the word lists and the CLL have no idea that there is a distinction between substance and collective, and think they're both the same, you'll pardon me if on this, I suspend fundamentalism.
> we're back to square one (it could still >be one person doing the carrying), and if {remei} is a collective... >well, that might work, but it needs a lot of thinkingDepending on how many gadri members there are in the three series, places could be added to -mei to allow access to them but I stand by the x1 unlessyou've got a wallop of usage to go along with all this theory.
Usage? USAGE?! That's rich, when you never defined the difference between collective and substance in the first place.
There will be a few things on which everything needs to be thrown out, and I still think this is one of them. I am offering you a non-disruptive way of making a collective/substance distinction; you should be taking it.
Scenario A: Jim and John jointly carry the piano le re remna na bevri le pipno lei re remna ja'a bevri le pipno lo remei be le'i remna ja'a bevri le pipno Scenario B: Jim carries the piano, John doesn't le re remna na bevri le pipnolei re remna ja'a bevri le pipno (if one of us, then all of us: substance/mass) lo remei be le'i remna na bevri le pipno (remei indicates collective, not substance.)
Scenario C: Jim and John's severed limbs carry the piano le re remna na bevri le pipno lei re remna ja'a bevri le pipno lo remei be le'i remna na bevri le pipnoThere's no real point in insisting that the remei is re unless you're counting its members as distinct participants in a joint process. (Like xod says, if you're really treating things as a mass, you're not counting anything, it's just a tu'omei.) This makes {mei} quite sensible for collective. And I honestly doubt anyone ever used it for substance; I believe Lojbanists would accept Scenario C.
If everyone does, then case closed: we have our solution.
I generally approve of your "fundamentalist" pose - whether I agree with all the conclusions, it sure cuts away a lot of the ornate embellishmentsthat the semanticists seem to want.
Eh. When I'm convinced that an embellishment is necessary, I moderate the fundieism. But the point of fundamentalism isn't avoiding new features; it's backward compatibility.
There is some stuff jboskeists do that I don't get and don't feel I need get. But the distinction between substance and collective? Come on, that's basic stuff.
(I should interject at this point that one criticism that Lojban has seen from old Loglanists as well as some newcomers who have turned away, is that we have added lots of baroqueornateness to what was otherwise a relatively simple language. We should bear this criticism in mind before ascending to new heights of baroqueness.
You really don't want to know what I think of such criticism. If you wanted simple, go learn Klingon.
-- -- Dr Nick Nicholas, French/Italian, University of Melbourne nickn@hidden.email http://www.opoudjis.net "My most mighty, God-respected, God-glorified, God-promoted, God-governed, God-magnified Holy Lord King. Health and merriment to your soul, vigour and well-being to your divine and royal body, prosperity to the benefactions issuing from your hand, and everything else good and salvific does my humble self wish to your Holy Majesty on behalf of God Almighty." --- Miklosich & Mueller I. CLXXXIV; Patriarch to Emperor.