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de'i li 2002-12-05 ti'u li 10:39:00 la'o zoi. Jordan DeLong .zoi cusku di'e >However, "tu'o nu" is semantically the same as "<zo'e> lo nu", and >using it as a different article is just broken. The ma'oste says that tu'o is "a non-specific/elliptical number"; however, from CLL's description, I think that it is clear that tu'o is more akin to zi'o than to zo'e. CLL explains tu'o on page 450 (18.14.1): CLL> 14.1) li tu'o va'a ny. du CLL> li no vu'u ny. CLL> the-number (null) additive-inverse n equals CLL> the-number zero minus n CLL> -n = 0 - n CLL> CLL> The ``tu'o'' fulfills the grammatical requirement for a left CLL> operand for the infix use of ``va'a'', even though semantically CLL> none is needed or wanted. va'a is only a unary operator, and makes no sense as a binary operator, so it's pointless to say here that tu'o represents a non-specific or elliptical number. tu'o is used just in those places where a number is grammatically required, but none is wanted semantically. The motivation for using "tu'o du'u" is not just that lo'i du'u is a singleton, but that it's inherently a singleton, and can be nothing else, so it seems a bit pernicious to quantify over it. While "tu'o du'u" is better, I use "le du'u" outside of jboske debates, since it's traditional and it's not inaccurate. tu'o as a quantifier for non-singleton sets (as in "tu'o nu" or "tu'o cinfo", etc.) is therefore clearly not anything like "<zo'e> lo nu" (where <zo'e> is something like "vei mo'e zo'e"). <zo'e> would mean that there is some number which quantifies over the set, but if we go by analogy with the CLL's explanation, then I think we would say that there isn't any actual number there, tu'o is just filling the space because grammatically some number is required, though none is wanted, and that is very useful for extracting the intension from the set, instead of quantifying over the extension, as xorxes has pointed out with his use and explanation of lo'e. Conclusion: the ma'oste should be fixed. mu'o mi'e .adam.