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Jordan:
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:48:14PM +0000, And Rosta wrote:
> > Jordan:
> > #On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 02:19:52AM -0000, And Rosta wrote:
> [...]
> > But to answer your point briefly, we felt that:
> > (a) true statements about typicality could be expressed in other ways,
> > (b) the mahoste gloss was only an approximation, and lo'e was in fact
> > a *generic* gadri, (and a generic gadri makes much more sense
> > systemically, as a gadri, than something that merely encodes a
> > notion of statistical typicality),
> > (c) the 'bad analysis' of {lo'e} is the best analysis of the meaning of
> > a generic gadri
>
> This is questionable I think. Cf. my complaints about the definition
> in response to xorxes
>
> My understanding is that generics *do* in fact make statements about
> typicality:
> Dogs like to chase cats
> A dog has a tail and two ears
> I think le'e and lo'e are intended to cover these types of generics,
> and not the "I want to eat a apple" type of statement
Not all generics make statements about typicality (burgundy is a
red wine, the dodo is extinct). On the singularizational analysis
of generics, typicality falls out naturally as an epiphenomenon.
You'll see from the message I've forwarded that lo'e is held to
cover "I like chocolate", "This depicts a snake", and it then
turns out that the gadri that will serve for these examples will
serve equally well for "The lion lives in Africa" and examples
like yours above.
> Furthermore, for the latter type, I don't think we are in need of
> additional tools:
> mi djica lenu mi citka lo plise
> covers it just fine, without claiming it's a specific apple, etc
> (djica already shifts things to the world of the speaker's desires,
> I think, so I don't think the le on nu claims they have an event
> from this world in mind)
I agree. The relevant gismu here is {nitcu} -- how do we say
"I need a box (any box)", using {nitcu}? One solution would be
to not use nitcu and instead use a gismu that, like djica, takes
an abstraction x2. But it happens that {nitcu lo'e} works too,
though this is not part of the rationale for lo'e.
> > (d) there was a class of examples where generic reference made
> > sense but not any notion of statistical typicality,
> > (e) there was not a class of candidate examples of use of lo'e where
> > a statistical typicality but not a generic notion was clearly required
>
> Under the suggested definition, a statement like
> lo'e cinfo cu xabju la fi'ortu'a
> Lions live in africa
> is equally as true as
> lo'e cinfo cu xabju la vinys. .enai le terdi be ma'a
> Lions live on Venus, not Earth
>
> lo'e must be related to the members of lo'i (in this world) for it
> to make any sense as a generic article
lo'e is related to the members of lo'i in this world. But it
conceptualizes this world in such a way that lo'i is a singleton,
regardless of whether someone else might conceptualize lo'i as
a nonsingleton.
--And.