[YG Conlang Archives] > [engelang group] > messages [Date Index] [Thread Index] >
And Rosta scripsit: > I've heard barely any Lojban spoken, but my money's on /h/ and /x/ > failing to cause a problem not because they're always auditorily > distinct but because what with taking stress nd rhythm into account, > in most environments the contrast remains to some extent, and of course > pragmatic context disambiguates easily. I don't have a problem in Lojban either, because I realize /x/ as [X], so [iXi] is a long way from /ihi/ realized as [iCi]. The bigger issue is /uhu/, which comes out [uxu], dangerously close to [uXu]. However, the former has no scrape, as with all my realizations of /h/. In post-Lojban Loglan, both /h/ and /x/ are full consonants, and both can participate in consonant clusters: indeed, one way to mark fu'ivla is to make a consonant cluster involving /h/, like _sofha, brihe, sakhi fighe_ 'sofa, brie, saki, fig'. /x/ does not appear in native Loglan words. > Even /h/:/x/ contrasts are pretty rare. John Cowan once told me it > occurs in Irish, tho I never got to see a good list of minimal pairs. Having read the WP articles on Irish phonology, I now know far less than before. There is definitely a phonemic contrast between /x/, /C/, and /h/, but it is also much more messy than the simple symbols would suggest. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_phonology#Processes_relating_to_.2Fx.2F Looking at WALS also suggests that fricatives (other than [h]) appear less often in the world's languagesr as one moves toward the back of the mouth, and back voiced fricatives occur in far fewer languages than front ones. This suggests that [G] be avoided. I continue to believe that five vowels plus an epenthetic is the correct number. There is a substantial drop-off in the number of languages with more than six quality contrasts. -- John Cowan cowan@hidden.email http://ccil.org/~cowan Original line from The Warrior's Apprentice by Lois McMaster Bujold: "Only on Barrayar would pulling a loaded needler start a stampede toward one." English-to-Russian-to-English mangling thereof: "Only on Barrayar you risk to lose support instead of finding it when you threat with the charged weapon."