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Re: [engelang] Xorban: Semantics of "l-" (and "s-" and "r-")



Sorry, I don't understand the notion of picking bears in general.  If we pick, we are no longer general; if general, then not picked.  I don't see a good way to explicate this precisely without going into the notion of fascination and the characteristics of bears, but failing that, I have no problem with the sentence you offer.  The "selected" bears may be a pretty amorphous bunch.  And, of course, it may turn out that what John is fascinated by is not bears themselves -- they actually terrify him -- but facts and the like about bears, maybe even pictures of bears.  All that comes out in the semantics of fascination, of course (but we mustn't mention that), as does the role that la crba play.  As I said, there are very few problems with existing {lo}, so long as it is what it usually actually is and not some ghost without a machine.

I am of two minds about the "each child kissed his/her mother".  One is to deny that this is a case of lV at all, but rather (as it usually would be in logic, if not in Lojban) just something with rV and/or  sV   ra [child]a re mmteka [kiss]ake  (sorry, I'm blanking on vocabulary today and my cheat sheet is two floors away).  The other is the lambda approach, which I suspect goes against &'s strange restrictions (insofar as I understand them), but which seems to provide a general escape -- for there will surely be cases not so readily dealt with.



From: Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@hidden.email>
To: engelang@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2012 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [engelang] Xorban: Semantics of "l-" (and "s-" and "r-")

 
On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 10:49 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@hidden.email> wrote:
>
> I've given you one plausible interpretation, that l is an ever leftmost
> quantifier that picks out a bunch of items and sticks with thm throughout
> its scope. It does the trick and is a familiar feature of natural
> languages. There are problems with it, xorxes insists, and so it may need
> some work, but it is not obviously crippled from the getgo.

The minor problem I find there is, as I mentioned before, when the
restriction contains a free variable. For example:

ra vrba le mmteka cnbake
Each child, their mother, they kissed her.
"Each of the children kissed their mother."

You would need to introduce some kind of lambda term for l- to be
moved to the left, but I doubt we will disagree much about any of
that. I would just say that "ra P le Q" is equivalent to "le Q ra P"
as long as Q does not contain "a" as a free variable and be done with
that.

The unsurmountable disagreement will come however when we consider
what items are available for l- to pick, or indeed whether there is
some predetermined set of items from which it must pick. For example,
I would allow l- to pick whatever it needs to pick for:

la ma djni le crbe mncake
"John is fascinated by bears."

to work as desired, while I suspect you may not be happy with l-
picking bears in general.

ma'a xrxe