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--- In ceqli@yahoogroups.com, <li_sasxsek@...> wrote: > > From: ceqli@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ceqli@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > Rex May > > > I'm still puzzling over names. At this point, Ceqli has > > two ways to designate names. With the 'ti', analalgous > > to Loglan 'la', and the morph 'zo', which is a suffix that > > converts the morpheme or compound it's attached to > > into a name. > > I would say just stick with "ti" and eliminate the suffix. That way > "ti" can be a marker saying "what follows is name (and therefore, may > violate morphology rules)". Hm. Now I'm trying to retrace my thinking in adding the -zo in the first place. But I like your new definition of "ti". That just might solve the problem. > > > > I thought about the system of just having a name, by > > definition, end in a consonant plus a pause, but then > > you can't make compounds out of names. > > You can. Just come up with some type of epenthetic to insert. > > > > Despite all this, I see making names into a separate > > kind of word as a good thing. Has anybody made > > this distinction in a SSM language and avoided the > > awkwardness of Loglan? > > > > ... > > > However, it can mean any kind of French bread, and > > is not a compound. Can we compound it? > > > franzopan > > I don't see why not. So with your neo-ti, the versions would be ti fran sa pan = bread somehow associated with France. ti franpan = French bread (a particular kind of bread) And now I'm seeing the reason for 'zo'. If you make that compound, the 'ti' calls it all a name, which (the way I think of 'name', it isn't. Perhaps "french bread" isn't the best example. Let's go with 'Swiss cheese" instead, because it's clearly a _kind_ of cheese, made all over the place, whereas all kinds of other cheeses are made in Switzerland. So. I want to be able to say both in Ceqli. ti helve sa froma = cheese associated with Switzerland ti helvefroma = Swiss cheese. Yes, now I'm sure of my thinking. The 'ti' makes helvefroma into a name, but it isn't a name, any more than 'xanyaqfroma' (goat cheese) is. It's a common noun _derived_ from a proper noun, or, specifically, a common noun that is a compound of a name and a common noun. How is the distinction made in English? I like Swiss cheese. - that pretty much is sure to be understood as the kind of cheese with holes in it. To say the other, you just about have to have: I like Swiss-made cheese. or "I like cheese from Switzerland." So it seems like I need the zo, or something like it, to allow such compounds. > > > I've avoided some of Loglan's morphs derived from > > names by going with this paradigm: > > > > japan = go-bread (Tolkien's 'waybread'?) > > japanzo = Japanese > > japanzobol = Japanese language > > japanzohaym = Japan > > japanzojin = japanese person > > > > That seems to work for geographical stuff all right. > > Still, you could probably do without "zo" and have "japanbol", etc. Of > course the native name "nihon" would avoid confusion with "japan". > > > > fuji - future-life > > fujizoxaq - Mt. Fuji > > How about "xaq ti fuji" (mountain named fuji)? > > > > So, making an end run around the Loglan thinking, > > what I have is a name making a compound with a > > regular morpheme, which seems to work logically. > > > > But then I get to things like "a Budweiser" > > > > ciq don go budwayzerzo. > > Well, this is one you wouldn't hear me say. I'd say "ciq don go > haynekenzo" so I'll use that one. > > > Won't work, because I'm asking for the company, or something. > > How about 'budwayzerzoba'? > > You could go with the "mountain" example I gave. > > ciq don go ba ti hayneken. > > > > On a related note, I see 'ti' as necessary for phrase names, if > > nothing else: > > > > ... > > > > And back to the -zo. The way I see it, the compounded > > forms would be used only when necessary. > > I still think "-zo" is redundant with the particle "ti". The particle > is a bit cleaner because it doesn't alter the name. > > > > > gosa pamo bi cinzo. My father is Chinese. > > gosa pamo bi ti cin. > > > > Context makes a -jin unncessary. Likewise. > > go pren cinzo. go ja cinzo. go kom cinzo. > > go pren ti cin. go ja ti cin. go kom ti cin. > It occurs to me that, out of context, "go pren ti cin" is ambiguous. It might mean "I understand China, or Chinese, or Chinese people." But aside from that, we have the same problem with bol ti cin maning both "The Chinese Language" and "A language of China" ? which could include Min, etc. So maybe I need 'zo' for compounds of this sort, but not for anything else. Thing is, the principle of compounds being.... can we say "metamoprhemes" is basic to Ceqli.