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> Behalf Of Rex May > --- In ceqli@yahoogroups.com, <li_sasxsek@...> wrote: > > I would say just stick with "ti" and eliminate the suffix. That way > > "ti" can be a marker saying "what follows is name (and > therefore, may > > violate morphology rules)". > > Hm. Now I'm trying to retrace my thinking in adding > the -zo in the first place. But I like your new definition > of "ti". That just might solve the problem. > > > However, it can mean any kind of French bread, and > > > is not a compound. Can we compound it? > > > > > franzopan > > > > I don't see why not. > > So with your neo-ti, the versions would be > > ti fran sa pan = bread somehow associated with France. > ti franpan = French bread (a particular kind of bread) > > And now I'm seeing the reason for 'zo'. If you make > that compound, the 'ti' calls it all a name, which (the > way I think of 'name', it isn't. Perhaps "french bread" > isn't the best example. Let's go with 'Swiss cheese" > instead, because it's clearly a _kind_ of cheese, made > all over the place, whereas all kinds of other cheeses > are made in Switzerland. But you could write compounds with a space between "ti fran pan", or not require a marker on derivatives or compounds. > So. I want to be able to say both in Ceqli. > > ti helve sa froma = cheese associated with Switzerland > > ti helvefroma = Swiss cheese. > > Yes, now I'm sure of my thinking. The 'ti' makes > helvefroma into a name, but it isn't a name, any > more than 'xanyaqfroma' (goat cheese) is. It's a > common noun _derived_ from a proper noun, or, > specifically, a common noun that is a compound > of a name and a common noun. Since it's no longer a proper noun, then you could drop the "ti". Or come up with an easier way to say "swiss cheese" that eliminates the ethnic reference like maybe "hole cheese". > How is the distinction made in English? > > I like Swiss cheese. - that pretty much is sure > to be understood as the kind of cheese with > holes in it. To say the other, you just about have > to have: > > I like Swiss-made cheese. or "I like cheese from > Switzerland." Another would be to qualify it somehow like "swiss-styled cheese". > So it seems like I need the zo, or something like > it, to allow such compounds. Since thoose compounds are no longer "names" but common nouns, they should theoretically be unmarked. > > > gosa pamo bi cinzo. My father is Chinese. > > > > gosa pamo bi ti cin. > > > > > > > Context makes a -jin unncessary. Likewise. > > > go pren cinzo. go ja cinzo. go kom cinzo. > > > > go pren ti cin. go ja ti cin. go kom ti cin. > > > > It occurs to me that, out of context, "go pren ti cin" is > ambiguous. It might mean "I understand China, or Chinese, > or Chinese people." > > But aside from that, we have the same problem with > > bol ti cin > > maning both "The Chinese Language" and "A language of > China" ? which could include Min, etc. > > So maybe I need 'zo' for compounds of this sort, but > not for anything else. Thing is, the principle of compounds > being.... can we say "metamoprhemes" is basic to Ceqli. If you are going to keep "zo", then drop "ti". There's really no need for both. I just think it's clearer to have the marker precede the name, than follow it.