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on 2/15/04 10:28 PM, HandyDad at lsulky@hidden.email wrote:
> --- In ceqli@yahoogroups.com, Rex May - Baloo <rmay@m...> wrote:
>> on 2/15/04 9:03 PM, Rex May - Baloo at rmay@m... wrote:
>>
>>> on 2/15/04 7:27 PM, HandyDad at lsulky@r... wrote:
>>>
>>
>> Basically, there's no problem with.
>>
>> Go dorm sur to cwaq. I sleep on the bed. or
>> Go sur to cwag dorm I'm on the bed, sleeping.
>>
>> Except that we need a disambiguator. Wait:
>>
>> Go sur to cwaq de dorm. or Go dorm hu sur to cwaq.
>> I on-the-beddingly sleep. or
>>
>> Go dorm de sur to cwaq. or Go sur to cwaq hu dorm.
>> I sleepingly am on the bed.
>>
>> Or is there an inconsistency here? Can de be used to set off an
> adverb as
>> well as an adjective phrase?
>>
>> So, then, we need a change-of-place way of distinguishing
>>
>> I walk into the house
>> from
>> I walk in the house.
>>
>
> I'm too tired tonight to think very clearly about it. But it's
> becoming clear to me that these prepositional phrases that function
> as adverbs of place are exactly parallel to adverbs of time or any
> other adverbs, and they relate to their verb headwords in the same
> way that adjectives relate to their noun headwords.
>
> Let's sum up:
>
> We have, in Ceqli, two ways of indicating modifiers:
>
> 1) {modifier} "de" {headword}
> 2) {headword} "hu" {modifier}
>
> The modifier may be a single word or a phrase. Although these
> structures have been discussed as applying to noun phrases, it seems
> as though they should also apply to verb phrases.
>
> We also have objects of verbs. It may be that these are qualitatively
> different from adverbs; but can they be handled as though they are
> not?
>
> 'I gave a lovely gift to Sarah.'
>
> We think of 'gift' as a three-place verb: subject; direct object
> (that which is given); indirect object (that which receives).
>
> 'I gave a lovely gift in her memory.'
>
> We think of 'in her memory' as an adverb of (figurative) place, but
> we don't think of 'to Sarah' as an adverb of...what? Direction? Why
> not? They both describe and further specify the act of giving.
>
> Yes, there are distinctions that linguists can and do make, but can
> ordinary people trying to use a language make those same
> distinctions? Do they want to even if they can?
>
> I kind of want to consider ANY prepositional phrase associated with a
> verb, be it an indirect object or an adverb of place or time, as a
> modifier, to be dealt with using one of "de" or "hu".
>
> 'I to Sarah "de" gave a lovely "de" gift.'
> 'I in her memory "de" gave a lovely "de" gift.'
Given ceqli's protean adaptability, I'd say it can function either way:
To jini pa don ta bel de donxo to jino.
Would be the standard way to do it with a three-place verb. (S, O, and IO)
Now, the verb/prep that means 'to' in this sense would probably be 'faq,'
'direction.'
To jini pa don ta bel donxo faq to jino.
And I'm having a hard time moving that 'modifier' anyplace else.
To jini faq to jino pa don ta bel donxo.
Might work, or insert a 'de'
To jini faq to jino de pa don ta bel donxo.
To jini pa don ta bel donxo hu faq to jino.
This last seems awkward because faq to jino seems to modify donxo instead of
don. So probably it'd end up being a rare form.
--
Rex F. May (Baloo)
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