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--- On Mon, 10/31/11, Daniel Prohaska <daniel@hidden.email> wrote: > OK, interesting project, just some thoughts... I think it's an interesting project as well! > This is your game and I don't want to suggest you change > anything about your outlook on the project, but hen going > about something like that I would first have to think about > the mechanisms of language replacement, substrate, adstrate, > social stratification etc. After I read the introduction I had some questions along this line as well. Clearly, Daniel is not interested in recreating or continuing Anglo-Norman (the entirely Romance language brought by the Normans to England and spoken there for some time -- and *still* a going concern in the Channel Islands (check out various sources on Jerriais -- an exciting variety of French to learn!)). My main question would be, how "Romance" can one make English without entirely replacing its Germanic character. As you say, Dan (P.), English is essentially and thoroughly a Germanic language. It just has a lot of Romance vocabulary. I wonder what the result is supposed to be -- an actual Romance language, or just English with even more Romance vocabulary than we've got now. And if so, how much more? > I don't think that English would ever have changed into a > Romance language and despite its large chunk of Romance > vocabulary, English is essentially a Germanic tongue in > structure, but also in terms of every day vocabulary. I get the idea that he is going to try to replace much of this native vocabulary. But, are the really basic words (pronouns, "intimate" words (family terms), etc) going to be Frenchified as well? > I would develop a scenario in which the Normans would have > gained linguistic dominance through which English would > eventually have been replaced, i.e. look at Anglo-Norman and > age it a little... this would be a much more Gallo-Romance > dialect than using the existing English-from-Romance > vocabulary. While this would also make for an interesting project, this language more or less already exists in the form of Jerriais (and Guernsiais). I do think it would be interesting to re/construct the Norman French of Londres as the official language of Angleterre -- in other words, to take 12th and 13th century N-F / A-N and let it push ME aside and see what could have developped from that point. > Just some food for thought... > Dan > > On Oct 30, 2011, at 9:22 PM, Daniel Hollande wrote: > > > Hi Romconlang members, > > > > I'd like to introduce to you all my 'project de le(a) > langue anglese'. It's > > not a Romance auxlang, so I hope I'm not ruffling any > feathers by posting > > here. It's not in a great state of development at the > moment and it's only > > an amusing pastime. As already mentioned, this is as good a place as any to discuss your project! > > Essentially, I am trying to finish off the work of > what the Normans and > > others have been doing to the English language over > the centuries by > > turning English into a Romance language. By this do you a literal Romance language, or a Germanic language with all Romance vocabulary? In other words, are you changing the grammar as well as the lexicon? > > The aim of the Anglese Project is > > to use language entirely derived from the Latin and > Romance heritage in the > > English language. The project is not an attempt to > recreate Anglo-Norman > > and it's in opposition to the linguistic purification > of English that the > > Anglish community is striving to create. This is where confusion arises -- if your aim to continue the good work of jolly King Billy and his conquering confreres, then I'm not really sure what the point is of you're not going to use A-N as the basis for a conlang. If you just want to Frenchify English a little, then I'm not sure what you mean by turning English into a Romance language. I guess the basic question here is: what is your project really all about??? > > In order to create a considerably Romanized, or > perhaps more accurately, > > Romanicized English I have set out the following 6 > point of criteria (they > > are not all finalized but they are working so far): Reading through the six points, I see that you really aren't (yet?) addressing the grammatical structure of either English or Anglo-Norman. Do I guess correctly that you're leaving the grammar as is? If so, then you're not going to end up with a Romance (or even a Romanicized) langauge. You're just going to end up with English with a French lexicon: Vous'tez seulement vaiant a finir sur avec Anglais avec en Francois lexique. Mon Dieu! Is that more or less the result!? Looking forward to seeing more development! Padraic > > 1) USE ROMANCE / LATIN EQUIVALENTS | USE INTERNATIONAL > EQUIVALENTS > > Using respectable and authoritative dictionaries, > replace common English > > words (of Germanic or non-international derivation) > for their equivalent > > Romance English synonyms. If there are no equivalents > available, proceed to > > step *2*. > > > > Examples: > > *belief *> *credence* > > *bug *> *insect* > > *daily *> *quotidian*, *diurnal* > > *feeling *> *sentiment* > > *island *> *isle* > > *kingly *> *royal*, *regal* > > *main *> *principal* > > *sell *> *vend* > > *wed *> *marry* > > *wood *> *forest* > > > > Words with international currency do not change: > > *east* > > *football* > > *north* > > *south* > > *west* > > > > 2) REVIVE OLD TERMS > > Find obsolete, rare, dialectal, poetic, dead terms > from dictionaries. These > > words must include an etymologically sound headword > and a definition > > (principally) equivalent to the English. If there are > no obsolete terms > > available, proceed to step *3*. > > > > Examples: > > *apple *> *pome* > > *baker *> *furner* > > *beard *> *barb* > > *bread *> *pain* > > *dead *> *mort* > > *good *> *boon* > > *land *> *terre* > > *son *> *fitz* > > *wall *> *mure* > > *wrinkle *> *ruge* > > > > 3) USE TERMS WITH ETYMOLOGICALLY SOUND HEADWORDS > WITHOUT ORIGINAL ROMANCE > > DEFINITION > > If failing to find , proceed to step *4*. > > > > Examples: > > *back** > dorse > > enough** > assets > > fly** > mouche > > four** > cater > > handle** > anse > > light** > lum > > listen** > scout > > moon** > lune > > oak** > cork > > sail** > veil > > tree** > arbor* > > > > 4) CREATE NEOLOGISMS > > Back-formations or new coinages may be created from > living affixes. > > Artificiality is best avoided. If failing in this > step, proceed to step *5*. > > > > Examples: > > *arm > brace (brace < bracelet) > > arrow** > fletch (fletch < fletcher) > > dog** > ken (ken < kennet 'small dog/puppy') > > England** > Angleterre (Angleterre Angle + terre) > > English** > anglese (anglese angl- + -ese) > > French** > fra(u)ncese (fra(u)ncese < Fra(u)nce > + -ese) > > good** > bon (bon < bonity) > > nose** > nas(e) (nas(e) < nasal) > > oven** > furn (furn < furner)* > > > > 5) CREATE NEOLOGISMS (UNNATURAL) (not so sure about > this one) > > Creation of back-formations or new coinages from > unproductive affixes is > > best avoided because these forms are usually very > artificial. If failing to > > find , proceed to step *6*. > > > > Examples: > > *beautiful > bell (bell < Bellamy Œbeautiful > friend‚) > > dog > can(e) (can(e) < canid) > > dog > ken (ken < kennel) > > good > boun (boun < bounty) > > friend > amy (amy < Bellamy Œbeautiful > friend‚) > > friend > emy (emy < enemy) > > foot > ped (ped < pedal, pedestrian)** > > > > *6)* *BORROW > > if there doesn‚t exist a Romance/Latin alternative, > borrow from > > Anglo-Norman is preferable with guidance of the other > Channel Islands > > dialects and French. > > > > Examples: > > *dog > chen > > foot > pé > > of > de > > that > que* > > > > Hope this little project of mine interests someone. I > think I may create a > > e-mailing group to discuss all the Romance points in > English as well and > > the creation of a Romance English language/Anglese. > > > > Regards > > Daniel Holland - Angleterre > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > romconlang-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > romconlang-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > romconlang-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >