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--- Peter Collier <petecollier@hidden.email> wrote: > According to my references the intervocalic <t> to > <zz> shift didn't occur after short /a/ (no idea > *why*), so I have for example /fra:ter/ > /Tra:ter/ > > > /trasser/, but /pater/ > /pa:ter/ (the /a/ > /a:/ > ultimately arising from the open $) > > Latin PASSER I think might undergo /s/ > /z/ > /r/ - > I > can't remember what happens to geminates... scratch > that, it would stay at /s/ because of the stress. > > > Pete. The Alemanic and Swabian dialects do have initial /p/ > /pf/ though, so my 'Swiss' Rienench speakers would say 'Pfater', 'Pfan' etc. /pf/ also occured in most of the Bavarian dialects and it still exists in rural pockets, mostly among older speakers. The standard language for some reason* ended up with the Franconian /p/ prevailing. These days the Viennese tend to look down their noses at anyone who talks about their Dear Old "Pfatl". Such language is for "yodelling farmers and mountain goats". (*the reason being, I don't like Pf) Pete