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on 3/3/04 7:50 PM, HandyDad at lsulky@hidden.email wrote: Some of these will be simple ke-constructions: > How would we say: > > 'I help her paint the house.' Go pomo ke da pena to dom. > > 'I invite you to drink a beer.' Go ciq ke zi bwa ta biru. And the usual trimmed-down form: Ciq bwa ta biru > > 'I sing him to sleep.' This one is different. > > It seems like the "vo" construct should be usable here, but it might > need extending. In our previous examples, the same person was the > agent for both verbs: > > "Go dorm vo sta cwaq." > > Let's see: > > "Da [paint] to dom vo go [help]." Possible, sure: Da pena to dom vo go pomo. Could also be: Da pena to dom hi(kay) go pomo duy. or Da pena to dom hi(kay) go pomo co. > > "Bwa te biru vo go ciq." Here, I think, logic is that we're not stating, but inviting. So we can't have the statement with a modification, because we're not stating that it's so. I think our form for inviting, wanting, etc. should be: Go vol/ciq/jan/sper/pomni/dum ke zi bwa ta biru. > > "Da dorm vo go ziq." Here I think we need a totally different construction. Go fa ke zi dorm. I cause that you sleep. Go ziqde fa ke zi dorm. I singly cause you to sleep. Go ziqfa ke zi dorm. I sing-cause you to sleep. or we can get more alien Ke go ziq, da fa ke zi dorm. That I sing, it causes you to sleep. or even Go ziq hi co fa ke zi dorm. Question: Is there a contradiction if we also allow: Go dormfa zi. That is, I seem to have painted myself into a corner. Go ziqfa zi. I would think would mean "I cause you to sing." but Go ziqfa ke zi dorm. the 'ziqfa' means something totally different. Anything to prohibit here? But usages seem really handy. Now, with Esperanto '-ig' we can't have the first meaning, I don't think. Mi igas ke vi dormas, Mi kantante igas ke vi dormas. Mi igas ke vi dormas per kanti. *Mi kantigas ke vi dormas. No way on that one. Xigi means to cause to X, not to cause by X-ing. Following the same rule, I guess we couldn't use ziqfa, but would have to use vo as you have it or make sure we -don't- compound. Go ziqzu de fa ke zi dorm. or Go ziqzu de dormfa zi! Or working on your vo idea: Da dorm vo go ziq. Seems almost too vague. Is it he sleeps because I sing, or while I sing, or what? I think we need the fa in there: Go fa ke da dorm, vo ziq. Which is logically equivalent to Go ziqde fa ke da dorm. I think we can say all this stuff now, and, as you said, we seem to have more than one way to say just about everything, which is good. > Rex F. May (Baloo) Daily cartoon at: http://www.cnsnews.com/cartoon/baloo.asp Buy my book at: http://www.kiva.net/~jonabook/book-GesundheitDummy.htm