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on 2/22/04 8:53 PM, HandyDad at lsulky@hidden.email wrote: > --- In ceqli@yahoogroups.com, Rex May - Baloo <rmay@m...> wrote: >> on 2/21/04 9:39 PM, HandyDad at lsulky@r... wrote: >> >>> --- In ceqli@yahoogroups.com, Rex May - Baloo <rmay@m...> wrote: > > --SNIP-- > >> Tho the ceqli wordshape rule calls for one or more >> consonants at the beginning, it seems to in practice be one or two >> consonants. Can we use Italian as a guide? If it's permitted in > Italian ? >> initial clusters, I mean ? it's permitted in ceqli? >> >> Looking at the vocabulary, we have as initial clusters: >> >> sf >> sk >> sp >> st >> ts >> xp >> xt >> zb >> >> nothing for xk yet, but that'll be permitted. > > What about the voiced equivalents of those in the list? > "zv, zg, zd, dz, zhb, zhd, zhg, zhv..." > Plus "xf". zv, zg, zd okay. I have a theory that dz is less clear than ts, and zh and dzh aren't very distinguishable ? not nearly as much as x and c. Anyhow, as far as natlangs are concerned, many make the x/c distinction ? English, Chinese, Russian, German, etc. But few if any make the zh/j distinction ? English just barely does, and only Esperanto regularly does. Originwise, zd/g/v an the zh series are not likely to come from anywhere but Slavic languages, which probably will mean very few words of that sort. > >> >> That's not counting lrmn as consonants, of course. >> >> The only thing I'm really crazy about that I think you don't like > is the ts. > > My concern is that a significant number of major world languages -- > Asian and middle-Eastern ones, mainly -- have difficulty with > consonant clusters, so I think we ought to permit schwa buffering. > But if schwa buffering occurs between the two initial consonants of a > word, then it aurally separates into a Ce-class word followed by a > word with a single initial consonant: > > "zbano" => "z'bano" => "ze bano" > > Solutions are: > > 1) Prohibit initial consonant clusters (therefore, all consonant > clusters). > > 2) Require full [e] pronunciation of letter "e" everywhere. I'll go along with this one. Now, 'e' at end of words should be pronounced either as in bed or as in santé. I have no problem with the first pronunciation, but some do. Now, we have to distinguish between e and ey, and that requires definite emphasizing the latter, almost to the extent of making two syllables of it. > > 3) Require full [e] pronunciation in the words "se", "te", "xe", > and "ze". > > 4) Prohibit the words "se", "te", "xe", and "ze". > > 5) Prohibit schwa buffering (i.e., demand accurate pronunciation of > word-initial consonant clusters) > > 6) Not worry about it, figuring that we'll know when someone > means "ze bano" not "zbano". > > I also looked at the Spanish model of schwa buffering, where they > prefix 'sC-' words with a schwa before the 's'. But then the schwa > runs into the tail end of the preceding word. > >> but if you think about it, it's analogous to the c sound >> x is to c as s is to ts. They're both actually affricates, as is j, > not >> clusters. > > Quite so. Remember way back when I was urging that 'zh' be > represented by "j" and 'j' by "dj"? And if we're going to have "ts", > then why not "dz"? :-) As I wrote above, I don't thing those distinctions are as distinguishable. You run into ts/s contrasts everywhere, almost, but never into dz/z contrasts. Something about the voicing makes them harder to distinguish, I think. > >> If we had an extra Roman letter, we'd use it for ts. And it's >> very useful for German loanwords. as well as many Mandarin ones. > And if we >> can agree on this set, I don't think we'll be needing any more. I > don't >> want any ps or bz or anything like that. -- Rex F. May (Baloo) Daily cartoon at: http://www.cnsnews.com/cartoon/baloo.asp Buy my book at: http://www.kiva.net/~jonabook/book-GesundheitDummy.htm