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on 2/1/04 9:08 PM, HandyDad at lsulky@hidden.email wrote: > What we're discussing here is degrees of definite knowledge about the > referenced object on the part of the speaker and the listener. > > "te": speaker knows, listener knows > "da": speaker knows, listener doesn't know > "ki": speaker doesn't know, listener doesn't know > "sao": speaker knows, listener presumably knows > "cai": ? speaker knows and names, listener might know > > Looked at this way, "te", "da", and "ki" seem to form a continuum. In > English we sometimes replace the article with 'this' when we have > the "da" meaning in mind: 'I'm going to marry this Swede.' It does > seem a useful distinction. > > I don't know about "sao", though. To me it doesn't seem so important > whether the known thing is known because I just identified it or > because it's assumed as already identified through common experience. > If this distinction is made, then it seems that all the others in > Garrett's initial list ought to be made as well. > >> You don't mean a typical, or representative Swede here, >> do you? You could mean, say, that you're going to marry a Swede to >> get >> Swedish citizenship, say, and you don't need a typical one, you >> need -any- one. > > I don't follow, Rex. Does one of Garrett's articles convey > typicalness? And what is the distinction? Now I'm getting confused. From what he wrote here: The meaning of "ki" is translated very idiomatically in English: sometimes with "the", other times with "a", and other times with nothing at all. For example: "Today we are going to study the tiger." "You could get eaten by a tiger." "Tigers are very dangerous." So far, from your discussion of articles in ceqli so far, it looks like your articles match up like this: to = te tuya = ki (null)/# = da ?? = sao ti = cai I'm taking it that the tiger sentences pretty much call for typical tigers. Now, the Swede thing is ambiguous in English. Like I said, he could have a particular Swede in mind, or not. I see the distinction as: Kul Franjin bi jin. Tuya Franjin bol Franbol. Go fu zbanho to swejini. I'm going to marry the Swede (You and I both know the exact person I'm referring to) Go fu zbanho tuya swejini. I'm going to marry a typical Swede, not picked out yet, because I want to marry someone with typical Swedish characteristics. That is, a Swedish citizen of Moroccan descent isn't included. Go fu zbanho tawa swejini. I'm going to marry a Swede, already picked out and known about by me. Go fu zbanho ta swejini. I'm going to marry a Swede (any Swede at all, it will be any Swede, not necessarily a typical Swede. Because, say, I need to marry such a person to obtain Swedish citizenship.) Go fu zbanho te swejini. Includes, I think, all the meanings above. Question is, is tawa going to be useful? -- Rex F. May (Baloo) Daily cartoon at: http://www.cnsnews.com/cartoon/baloo.asp Buy my book at: http://www.kiva.net/~jonabook/book-GesundheitDummy.htm