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On Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 08:18:04PM -0600, Rex May - Baloo wrote: > Actually, I meant 'gro' as in 'grovor' to be 'big', to contrast with > 'pinvor.' Sorry. Perhaps > 'prea' from PREdicAte would be appropriate. This is what I get for responding to messages too quickly. Okay. Assuming that 'grovor' meant 'predicate word' was a rash assumption in the first place. > > * A gro terminator. This can be a terribly ugly word like "vjaj" > > because it's only necessary in theory, or perhaps in some obscure > > situations involving gro modifiers. > > What does a terminator do here? Well, it ostensibly goes at the end of the preja. "mi klama le zarci" with all its terminators is "mi cu klama le zarci ku vau". But since the end of the preja is nearly always (I can't think of a counterexample) going to be the end of a clause, the sentence, or the whole text, which have their own terminators/separators, "vau" is only a theoretical step, redundant in actual use. > > * A word plus place structure for 'talk'. The algorithm suggests 'kal' > > coming mostly from Arabic 'kalam'. > > > > kal x1 talks to x2 about x3 > > How about 'bol'? Are different words for talk, say, speak, necessary? Lojban has words for "talk" (tavla, which focuses on the topic), "express/say" (cusku, which focuses on what idea is expressed - the idea can be implied with an actual quote), and "utter" (bacru, which focuses on the actual sounds that are made). The three have different place structures, and are all in use. The distinction between "say" and "utter" is this: .i le ctuca cu cusku zo mu The teacher says "five". .i le bakni cu bacru zo mu The cow says "moo". (zo is a single-word quote.) > > * A word equivalent to Lojban 'cu', placed before the begro in the > > frequent event that a grovor comes before it. Loglan 'ga'. (Side note: > > the Loglan textbook is evil. They considerately introduced predicates > > after a bunch of scientific crap, and then simply avoided using 'ga' > > for several sections. I had a heck of a time finding it.) > > I see various possibilities. Take the sentence > To kan kom. > We can have a ga/cu word. > To kan ga kom. > We can close the 'to' > To kan beto kom. > If we decide on that, we need a better closer, one syllable, that can, say, > close any t-word. A single-syllable word for that would be nice. But anyway, 'ga'/'cu' is still important, because it answers an objection that And raises about having to count levels of grammar; if you're deep in descriptions and sub-clauses, 'cu' jumps out - no matter how many levels - to the next preja that needs a bepreja. Usually it gets you out to the main level of the sentence. (The bepreja is the word or group of words (prejavor) that is the actual 'verb' of the predicate.) > We can have a pinvor that means 'The preceding argument', which would behave > as the repeated 'da' I originally used, but without the ambiguity. > To kan (TPA) kom This would fill an extra place. But then, a "the previous argument" word (Lojban "ri") will be necessary too. > > > > * A paragraph separator. > > Like Loglan 'nao'? Sure thing. Though hopefully not a false cognate like that. (They even glossed it as "Now"!) > > * An end-of-text marker. (Again largely theoretical, but Lojban's "Alice > > in Wonderland" translation uses it for its obvious use, "The End".) > > How about 'pio,' from english PerIOd. Okay. But I suppose that at this point we should start coming up with the predicate words, as many of Lojban's cmavo were inspired by those instead of by other languages. "fa'o", its end of text word, came from "fanmo" for "final". (My word-making algorithm seems to rather like 'nj'. It makes 'fanje' as a suggestion for 'final'.) > > * Agreement on what punctuation will go where. > > I'm sure we can agree to no caps. How about . for a glottal stop and , for > a pause? Are they going to be distinguished? In Lojban, glottal stops are used as a substitute for a full pause when speaking quickly. I seem to recall someone objected to this, though. -- Rob Speer