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on 4/4/02 9:29 AM, Rex May - Baloo at rmay@hidden.email wrote: > on 4/4/02 8:51 AM, kevinbsmith at yahoogroups@hidden.email wrote: > >> --- In txeqli@y..., "John Schilke" <doc@c...> wrote: >>> Glosa has this business of "fu," "du," "pa" for tenses (only >>> if needed) and often it remains unused. >> >> As a semi-fluent Glosa speaker, I have to chime in here. On a >> side note, there is some substantial disagreement on the Glosa >> list right now about tense, aspect, etc. It seems that the Glosa >> system isn't quite complete. >> >> Anyway, the real point I wanted to make is that in Glosa, these >> tense markers (plus "nu" [now]) double as verb phrase markers. >> When you encounter one, you know you have left the subject and >> are entering the verb. Similarly, "u" and "plu" are the main >> noun phrase markers that let you know the verb is finished. >> There seem to be others, like "mi", but there is no concrete list >> so it is open to interpretation. >> >> Unfortunately, because these markers are optional, it is often >> difficult to parse sentences correctly. Generally it is possible >> by context, but often it requires one or more restarts because >> you hit a dead end. >> >> One example was when I recently said "mi volu auxi". I intended >> the meaning as "I want to-help", but it can equally be >> interpreted as "I want assistance". Even if I had said "mi nu >> volu auxi", it wouldn't have helped. >> >> The only way my meaning would be clear would be if the NP marker >> was required instead of being optional. Then, because I didn't >> say "mi nu volu u auxi", readers would KNOW that auxi was still >> part of the verb phrase. >> >> I hope Ceqli is able to avoid this confusion. I strongly believe >> that you should be able to parse almost any sentence in one try. >> It may take some context to grasp the intended meaning, but not >> the intended structure. > > Hm. That is a problem. Let's see. In Ceqli it would be > > Go vol pomo. which is short for. > Go vol ke go pomo. > > Now, to say I want asstance.... > > Go vol bepomo. I want to-be-helped. short for > Go vol ke go bepomo. > > Of course, pomoka is an act of helping, so could say > Go vol pomoka. > > If you mean some kind of tangible help, like money, could say > Go vol pomoxo. > > However, this whole thing leads me to wonder if maybe the thing to do is go > with the Loglan system, which started this whole thing anyway. If we did, > here's what we'd have: > > 1. Except for some grammatical particles, everything is a verb. > > Go pomo. I help. > > To pomo sa kan The help dog. dog who helps. > > To pomo. The helper, one who helps, which we now signify by 'pomovo'. > > In this case, the rule would have to change and there could be no more > sentences like > Kan pomo felin. Dog helps cat. > We'd have to make it explicit that a noun is a noun. > > Te kan da pomo te felin. Dog helps cat. > > Te being the default noun marker that can be definite/indefinite, whatever. > > And if we do that, why not go ahead and reserve CV(V) for grammar words that > do _not_ behave that way? I say not because it's just too darn arbitrary. > The number of grammar words should be small enough to memorize. > > Anybody want to Loglanize the predicates of Ceqli this way? Mike, this wd > maybe give it some internal consistency that you feel a lack of. Actually, -I- don't want to do this. I think the thing about Ceqli is that some words are nouns and some are adjective/verb/prepositions. There is no non-noun meaning for kan, pe, xo, zo, xi, cer, cam, etc. Likewise, non-nouns can only become nouns by being converted somehow. Bon can't be a noun, but it can become bonka, goodness, bonpe, goodperson, bonxo another kind of goodness, bonvo, etc. In this, Ceqli is more like Mandarin, except that we flat out -can't- do things like 'man the torpedoes'. A noun can become a verb by some sort of ending, maybe, but it can't be a verb without that. -- >PLEASE NOTE MY NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS: rmay@hidden.email > Rex F. May (Baloo) > Daily cartoon at: http://www.cnsnews.com/cartoon/baloo.asp > Buy my book at: http://www.kiva.net/~jonabook/gdummy.htm > Language site at: http://www.geocities.com/ceqli/Uploadexp.htm >Discuss my auxiliary language at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/txeqli/