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Re: [txeqli] Cause particle



on 3/18/02 12:54 PM, Mike Wright at darwin@hidden.email wrote:

> Rex May - Baloo wrote:
>> 
>> Okay, the way I see it, Ceqli needs four particles:
>> 
>> 1.  To become (Esperanto ig^i)
>> 2.  To cause  (Esperanto igi)
>> 3.  To cease being (the opposite of #1)
>> 4.  To cause to cease (opposite of #2)
>> 
>> Now, originally I had ho meaning become:
>> 
>> Go ho dorm.  I go to sleep, fall asleep.
>> Go dormho.   I go to sleep.
>> 
>> And kaw meaning cause.
>> 
>> Go kaw zi dorm.   I cause you to sleep, put you to sleep.
>> Go dormkaw zi.  I put you to sleep.
>> 
>> They can be used as suffixes, Esperanto style, or as words in their own
>> right, a la English and Mandarin.  I believe, tho, that when used as
>> suffixes, the resulting compound will again form a pseudo-morpheme.
> 
> I don't see the point of such suffixes. I would hold off on adding
> complications to the syntax just on the off chance that they may
> become useful. Why not wait until the need becomes obvious, then deal
> with it?

Maybe not all of them, but the Esperanto 'cause' word, -ig, is very useful
in that language.  It also has meaning as an independent word meaning
'cause,' but mostly appears as a suffix.
> 
> And why suffixes rather than prefixes? When does the logic of Ceqli
> syntax demand a suffix, and when does it demand a prefix?

In this case, I think it's the head-last rule.   I sleep-cause you.
Sleep-cause is a kind of causing, not a kind of sleeping.

One thing I think is important is color words.  I redden.  I blacken the
wall.  I whiten the screen.  Etc.  And I'm just prejudiced in favor of
compound words, I guess.

Does  mandarin have a pattern of any kind here?

I sleep.  I go to sleep.  I put him to sleep.
I'm red.  I turn red.   I make him red.
I sit.     I sit down.  I sit him down.

In Esperanto, I think, all these take the ig and ig^ suffixes.

> 
>> Now, there isn't much possible difference between dormho and ho dorm that I
>> can see, but something might develop.
> 
> And that would be the time to consider it.
> 
>> Now, I think we need two more words which will basically work this way:
>> 
>> Go X dorm.  I wake up   (Go dormX)
>> Go Y dorm zi.  I wake you up  (Go dormY zi)
> 
> Is the aim to have only "positive" morphemes, and to create all
> "negative" morphemes by modification? Will "I vomited" be the "Go pa X
> kom"? And will "I stood" be "Go pa X stu"? Or will it be "Go pa X pron"?
> 

Well, no.  I guess the aim is to find the happy medium between having
super-terse ways of saying things, and learnability.  That is, once you know
'un' and 'cause', you can make a lot of new words without learing them.

>> These would also apply thus.
>> 
>> Go jiY da.  I kill him.
> 
> And "resurrect" could be "jiYY".
> 
> Another approach might be to create compound verbs like "kawbuji" for
> "kill", "hobuji" for "die", "kawbudorm" for "wake up" (transitive) and
> "hobudorm" for "wake up" (intransitive).

I would be happy with these, tho I think they should be bujikaw, bujiho,
budormkaw, budormho.


-- 
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> Rex F. May (Baloo)
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