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Re: [katanda] xebe

Title: Re: [katanda] xebe
In a message dated 2002-09-20 12:13:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sts@hidden.email writes:
so "xebe" is "maxebenza ma mi"? ;)
how would you translate  "xebe" and "maxebenza" respectively?

note the ":)"!

stefo,
their translations are pretty much the same:
maxebenza - to be likely
xebe - it's likely that

this comment from Lesson 30 seems to explain it best [with appropriate modifications due to the differences in parts of speech (adverb vs. verb) and polarity prefix (vibe vs. xebe)]:

L30:
["Mavibenze" is more general than "vibe", since it can imply
that others in addition to the speaker are certain of the truth
of the statement.  Also note that, since it is an adverb, its
syntax is different as well.]

so "xebe" means "it's likely (to me) that...", whereas "maxebenza" applies to other people too.

and this "(to me)" i wanted to express in some sort of pseudo-katanda: "ma mi".

this gets us back to my original question:  does "fobenza mi" mean the same as "fobe"?  and i think the simple answer is yes.  their is a more detailed answer too: the two are used slightly differently, and their translations are different:

the first difference, anyway, is that in case of "fobe" you don't say that it's you who thinks that it's unlikely.

fobenza mi = I doubt [+focus]
fobe = it seems unlikely (to me) that [clause]

so, how would you say "it seems unlikely to me" without saying "i doubt"?

since the focus of "fobenza mi" can be other things besides a clause, it is more general than "fobe".  if the focus of "fobenza mi" is a clause, then i see no difference in their meaning, and i can't think of anywhere where they wouldn't be interchangeable.   and that gets us back to YOUR question:  "xebe" means the same as "xebenza mi" (without the "ma-" and with the same restriction of the focus being a clause).

ok, it may mean the same, but the way we express it must differ. "xebe" means that i don't say that it's me how thinks so, but if i say "xebenza mi" i have to say it explicitely that it's me.

in klingon we can say "an evident warrior" = /SuvwI'na'/, where his or her being evident is evident only to the speaker, as far as i understand it. how can we say this in katanda? we could say "a warrior that i am sure of", but how do we say "an evident (to me) warrior"?

with this grammar we could ask "a warrior???" with "warrior" plus an adjective derived from "kibe". do you know what i mean?

i ask this question in order to reveal the part of speach of "xebe". i still doubt that it's grammatical not to treat it as a verb, although the software is working fine of course.

there is no word "ma" (it has no classifier, for one thing). and there is no middle voice analog to "pava" to indicate the unexpressed subject of a middle verb. 

oops. i would have had to say "mava" instead of "ma". i ruined the joke! sorry.

here is some more info i found that has some bearing on this topic:

K-E:  xebenza - think, feel, reckon, be of the opinion, take as likely
    or probable. Pi xebenza mi budinca sekobyo = I thought that the
    professor left. Xebenza mi budincapsaw sekobyo = I take as likely
    the professor's departure.

K-E:  maxebenzo - likely, probable, almost certain. Batsa mabatsangi
    maxebenzo goy budinja sekobyo kospa = The likely outcome is that
    the professor will leave the school. Bube maxebenza budincapsaw
    sekobyo = The professor's departure isn't likely.

K-E:  be - probability modal disjunct. This is the probability modal
    disjunct. See the chapter on ... Xebe tenda Kajobyo nango = It's almost certain that John has the boat. ....

LS:    Louise xebe buy it
    = Louise must have bought it
       OR Louise almost certainly bought it.

LS: [paraphrases of the modalities] probability:   I feel that situation F is true
                        = I believe F
                        I feel that situation F is unlikely/improbable
                        = I doubt F

L16: xebe - It's almost certain that ...

L17 (concerning the difference between disjunct and related verb):
2. Note that "xenidu" is a disjunct and applies to the entire clause
that follows it, indicating that the event 'needs' to be accomplished,
while "xenidunda" is a verb indicating that the subject 'needs' the
object:

    Xenidu sesku mi cango va = I need to buy an automobile.

    Xenidunda mi cango va = I need an automobile.

interestingly, the "mava" subject of "xenidu" is _not_ the speaker. it's someone else, that the speaker knows. it may be the doer of what has to be done.

"he has to do his homework" - but this is necessary for whom? probably for him, but not for the speaker.

L19:
1. Use the high consequentiality modal disjunct "xepodu" to indicate
that a situation will have negative consequences if a hypothetical
event does not take place:

    Xepodu budinca tumi pinde dinca kobyo.
    = You had better leave before the teacher arrives.

The verb form "xepodunda" means that it's urgent for the patient to
perform the focus:
    Xepodunda tumi jabudinca sembe = It's urgent that you leave now.

because it would have negative effect on _you_ if you won't. but whose negative effect is it when we say "you had better leave before the teacher arrives"? is it "you"? maybe, but not necessarly. i think in all these cases:

xepodu
xenidu
xebe
fobe

the speaker knows to whom the clause is necessary or seemingly or with eventual negative effect. but the speaker doesn't say it, so that's what we had "ma-" for, i thought. that's why i still think:

xepodu = maxepodunda
xenidu = maxenidunda
xebe = maxebenda
fobe = mafobenda

well, this is "how it could be", of course, but the grammar of katanda prohibits using the disjuncts as verbs, so i cannot say "fobe kiva?" = "mafobenda kiva?" = "what is unlikely"? yet. :)

stefo,
sts.