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on 4/25/02 9:20 PM, Rob Speer at rob@hidden.email wrote: > On Thu, Apr 25, 2002 at 08:48:39PM -0600, Rex May - Baloo wrote: >>> It seems you're still thinking of "pi" as an adjective. It's a predicate >>> like any other. >> touch?! That's exactly what I was doing. >> >> How's this sound one CV turns nonpred things into preds, another vice-versa. > > What place structure would a CV+nonpred have? Well, it would depend on its meaning. I'm thinking of a case where, say, the instrumental nonpred is, say, 'zu' Go skri zu krayjon. Then the CVzu pred would mean 'use', and you'd determine the place structure just as you would if you'd taken 'use' from some other source. But I think we're mainly agreed that it's best to go the other direction. > What grammar would a CV+pred have? Yes, here's the chink in the armor. We wouldn't want a CV that simply turns a pred into a nonpred. Nonpred is too vague. We'd have a CV to do the opposite of the above. Go ploj krajon. I use a pencil. Go skri CVploj krajon. I write with a pencil. So the conclusion here, really, is that you don't just turn a pred into a nonpred. You turn a nonpred into some specific category of function word. Or maybe you're not even doing that. Maybe in the CVploj example, you're just turning the pred into some kind of subordinate pred. > > Sounds to me about like a CV to turn an apple into an orange. > > Similarities between certain predicates and pinvor should have mnemonic > value, but they shouldn't be mandated by the language. That makes sense. > > And I really don't see why "small" and "short time" should have anything > to do with each other. Well, they both indicate a diminution, but you're probably right that even so we need different roots. > >>>>> Lojban ma -> kwa (what object?) >>>>> Lojban mo -> kwo (what predicate?) >>>>> Lojban xu -> kwe (yes/no question) >>>>> Lojban xo -> kwi (how many?) >> >> Loglan has ie, and it's usage described as: >> Ie, the only VV-word in the set, is the identity interrogative. With it one >> raises questions about the identity of the persons or things being >> designated by one's interlocutor. To use it, the speaker puts it immediately >> before the argument about which da wishes to raise this question. For >> example, suppose someone mentions la Djan Djonz and obviously assumes that >> you the listener know who this gentleman is. But you don't. So you say >> >> (1) Ie la Djan Djonz Which John Jones? >> /IEladjan.DJONZ/ >> >> or simply >> (2) Ie Who? >> >> So ie may be used alone with the sense of 'Who?' or 'Which?', or even as >> 'What?' in the sense of 'What did you say?', as well as to mark a failed >> identifier. > > This sounds like the Lojban "ki'a", one of the UI cmavo. The Loglan > usage seems quite inconsistent: if it attaches to what comes _next_, > then "Ie" alone would attach to the next sentence! "ki'a", like all UI, > attaches to what comes before it. > > I think both ie and ki'a are overloaded. The gloss of "ki'a" is "textual > confusion", implying you don't understand what was said or what a word > means, but it's also used for confusion about identity. Loglan defines > it as confusion about identity, and goes on to use it for textual > confusion. It seems that way to me, too, tho I can't quite grasp what it shd turn into. I'm a little thrown by the fact that there seems to be no smooth way to distinguish between 'who' and 'what', and I'm wondering if there's a strong need to do so anyway. Is there a problem with using kwa thus? Zi ten kwa? What have you got? Zi ten kwa pe? Who have you got? Zi ten kwa xurnal? Which newspaper have you got? Or do we need one 'adjectival' what and one 'pronoun' what? You said elsewhere that we could just say 'kwa da' for what in the second sense, but if we did that, it would seem inconsistent to say 'kwa pe', going from pinvor to pred. Or, at least, it would seem that you should be saying 'kwa te pe' instead. -- >PLEASE NOTE MY NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS: rmay@hidden.email > Rex F. May (Baloo) > Daily cartoon at: http://www.cnsnews.com/cartoon/baloo.asp > Buy my book at: http://www.kiva.net/~jonabook/gdummy.htm > Language site at: http://www.geocities.com/ceqli/Uploadexp.htm >Discuss my auxiliary language at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/txeqli/