Re: [txeqli] Y, W - ceqli messages

Rex:>> As far as diphthongs are concerned, we'd need rules like:

iV and uV always form a diphthong, as do ai, ei, oi, au, eu.
Other 2-vowel combinations do not form diphthongs.
Three-vowel combinations can be triphthongs, provided the middle element is
not i or u: uai - why; iau - yow!; but aiu - ah-you; eua - eh-wah
No longer could we import words like Spanish día, because one thing we're
all agreed about is no diacritics, and dia would be pronounced dyah.
We'd either have to disallow 'ao' or insist on a glottal stop in the middle,
because I, for one, con't seem to distinguish pau from pao.

Ray:>> I don't see why the rule has to be so complex and why it requires exceptions. I would suggest:

The letters "i" and "u" following any vowel except "i" and "u" form single-syllable diphthongs with the preceding vowel, for example "ai, ei, oi, au, eu" are pronounced the same as "ay, ey, oy, aw, ew"; and the letters "i" and "u" before any other vowel are semi-vowels and also form a single syllable with the following vowel or diphthong, for example "uai, iau, aiu, eua" are pronounced as "wai, yau, ayu, ewa".

Now the rule can be further simplified and made more comprehensive by minimising the reference to syllables - because we decided on initial stress (or else an initially higher tone) we don't need to count syllables anymore - so the rule can be simplified and expanded to:

The letters "i" and "u" and the syllables "ii, iu, ui, uu" following any vowel except "i" and "u" form diphthongs with the preceding vowel (for example "ai, au, aii, aiu, aui, auu, ei, eu, eii, eiu, eui, euu, oi, ou, oii, oiu, oui, ouu" are pronounced respectively "ay, aw, ayi, ayu, awi, awu, ey, ew, eyi, eyu, ewi, ewu, oy, ow, oyi, oyu, owi, owu"). The letters The letters "i" and "u" and the syllables "ii, iu, ui, uu" preceding any other vowel or diphong are pronounced with a semivowel preceding the following vowel or diphthong ("ii, iu, ui, uu, aii, aiu, aui, auu, uai, iau, aiu, eia, eua, euou" are pronounced respectively "yi, yu, wi, wu, ayi, ayu, awi, awu, wai, yau, ayu, ewa, ewow").

You see that we have defined our diphthongs as being "i, u, ii, iu, ui, uu" following any vowel except "i" and "u" so this disallows "ao" as a diphthong but allows it as a combination pronounced "a:-o:" -distinctly different from "au [aw]". The diphthong "ou" as in "sow" is quite disinct from the pure sound "o" as in "saw", or compare the Chinese "lou" with Chinese "lo" . In chinese the sound written in Wade-Giles as "pau" and in Pinyin as "pao" is always pronounced as [pau], containing the "diphthong [au]. But the _expression_ "pa1 o2" (Bang! How can that be?) is pronounced [pa:-o:] with the addition of tones.

Now you come back to the question of which of the following is easier to work out the pronunciation of:

"ai, au, aii, aiu, aui, auu, ei, eu, eii, eiu, eui, euu, oi, ou, oii, oiu, oui, ouu" and "ii, iu, ui, uu, aii, aiu, aui, auu, uai, iau, aiu, eia, eua, euou", OR

"ay, aw, ayi, ayu, awi, awu, ey, ew, eyi, eyu, ewi, ewu, oy, ow, oyi, oyu, owi, owu" and "yi, yu, wi, wu, ayi, ayu, awi, awu, wai, yau, ayu, ewa, ewow".

The second group needs no special rule of pronunciation - it is already obvious. The first group require rules defining when the letter is pronounced as part of a diphthong or as a semi-vowel and when it is pronounced as a vowel.