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Yeah. What he said. --- In txeqli@y..., "Ray Bergmann" <rayber@s...> wrote: > John >> Does everybody hate ts? If everybody's against it, what do you think of using 'z' to borrow from german... zan, zal, etc. > > Ray >> Just a Rex has defined "j" as a phoneme that includes both [Z] and [dZ] I think it is fine to define "z" as a phoneme which includes both [z] and [dz], and "s" as a phoneme including both [s] and [ts], and even to consider either "c" or "x" to include both [S] and [tS], but because of the commonness of having both [S] and [tS] in all the languages we all speak, it may be wise to retain separate letters for those. But as has been pointed out, if we have "j" then it is easy to represent "dj", and if we have have "z" then it is easy to represent "dz", and if we have have "s" (or "c") then it is easy to represent "ts", and if we have either "c" or "x" for [S] it is easy to represent [tS] either by "tc" or by "tx". The extra letter can then be assigned to whichever affricate is the most common, which is without doubt [tS]. In other words if you want to keep q =[N], then necessarily j =[j or dj], z =[z or dz], x =[S] and either c =[tS or ts] or s =[s or ts]. Otherwise if you want to use "c" for [ts] and "q" for [tS] as Chinese does then you would need have "n" =[n or N].